The Word Cloud

Octopittens? Is that eight time what you'd get with a mere pittance?

Hi Persia

I read the article you quoted about the naming of America. Fascinating stuff. I think calling the Richard Ameryk theory an "invention" is a bit loaded. All the theories (including the Vespucci one) can be argued against; the fact is no-one knows how America got its name. My guess, after reading the article, would still be that the name America had been used before it was attributed to Vespucci though.

Incidentally, this discussion is the fault of the TV programme 'QI' which is based on the premise that nearly everything you think you know is wrong.

Hi Lennich

I don't know if I'd trust the validity of a book already claiming its ignorance in the title.

Tony, as far as what to call Octowhatsitsbabies, I'd probably just call them disgusting. Or Paella!

Hi Persia

"I don't know if I'd trust the validity of a book already claiming its ignorance in the title. "

Perhaps, but the QI book title refers to the ubiquity of ignorance, amply demonstrated by the article about the naming of America to which you referred me. It's clear from that that the Vespucci story the OED repeats is not a fact but a theory that has taken on the attributes of a fact through repetition over several centuries.

BTW, in case you haven't seen it, the QI TV programme has the authority of no less a presenter than Saint Steven Fry who someone (I forgot who) described as "a stupid person's idea of what an intelligent person is".

Oh, lennich, don't talk to me about theories that have taken on the attributes of facts through repetition (a very elegant turn of phrase of yours, if I may say so).

Lennich, good point! It's a lot like Evolution (this is NOT a subject I will debate as it's endless): Technically speaking, Evolution has never had enough scientific evidence to even elevate it out of the primordial muck of the hypothosis-level to the theory-level, and yet it's been repeated by so many for so long as a given that people actually believe it now, including respected and respectable scientists that have spent their careers trying to validate it. I know it's a hot subject, so I'll state again that I won't discuss it, as a group of 10 people will have 13 opinions, just like politics!!

I guess we'll never know who named America - the Indians (my guess, actually), Vespucci, Ameryk, or some scholars in Germany.

Spangles, I can only sympathise - and THAT event happened within two generations ago! Try finding the exact beginning and end of the Regency Period - nothing to do with the actual political Regency Period, by the way... Let me know where you're having your tantrum and I'll join you!

Spangles: Unless your report is an enquiry into the dates I'd be inclined to say at the beginning: "For the purposes of this report WWII is regarded as having begun with the declaration of war on Germany by the UK in 1939 and ended with the Japanese formal signing of the surrender to the allies in 1945".

Obviously you could substitute your own definitions, but by making the parameters clear at the beginning you can attempt to side-step any philosophical nerdiness.

Talking of the OED . . . I had a look at the CD-ROM version which claims to be the full thing i.e. the twenty-odd volumes of the second edition plus 3 volumes of additions plus 7,000 new words from the ongoing research. This is version 4 which was released in 2009 and it says about the plural of octopus:

Pl. octopodes (ɒkˈtəʊpədiːz), anglicized octopuses.

[mod.L. octōpus, a. Gr. ὀκτώπους, acc. ὀκτώποδ-α eight-footed, f. ὀκτώ eight + πούς, πόδ- foot.]

It doesn't mention octopi at all, even to suggest it is a misapprehension! I did do a search for octopi and there are (four) examples quoted from as early as 1834.

So, it would appear that the OED has changed its tune since March 2009 if it has now promoted octopi.

Thanks for your suggestion about making it clear about the Second World War dates, lennich. The author had given exact dates, neither of which seemed correct to me. In the end, I suggested to him that he mentions in his book that there are many end dates for the war and that he should choose a reputable source and give it as reference.

Many are the dates indeed. Did you know that WWII only formally ended on 3 October 1990?

I must admit I'd assumed that the online OED would be the most up to date of the various manifestations. It *ought* to be. BTW I read somewhere that if you're a library member and your library has access to the online OED then you can access it at home for free. I can't remember where I read this but it might be worth checking. ISTR the item just mentioned England and Wales so I don't know if it's available in the better parts of the nation.

So that's how America was named. And just think, if the German girl had been a little bit more butch it might have been called Ericamy and they might have discovered the art of paper folding befor the Japanese.

Lennich, you are kidding about the war ending in 1990, aren't you? Please, please, tell me you're joking.

Tony, if I wore a hat I would be taking it off to you.

Spangles, it is my fate to be thought serious when I'm joking and joking when serious. Quite often, anyway.

The *formal* end of WWII was apparently in 1990, though, when Germany was reunited.

The last survivor of the Crimean War died in 2004.

BTW, I've solved the mystery of the octopus and the dictionary: the OED online entry is a draft revision, dated Dec.2008 whereas the CDROM entry is the OED second edition entry from 1989. So it's official: octopi is now correct.

I've investigated and found that I can access the OED online (and lots of other goodies) from home using my library membership number as password, so it's definitely possible in Edinburgh, and Glasgow has a similar scheme. I don't know about anywhere else in Bonnie Jockland.

And the sun's just come out!

Good, glad we've got all those legs untangled and I've not been completely shamed after all. Thanks everyone for taking the baton and running for the hills.

Since I'm a glutton for punishment, and since we've also been discussing ends of wars, can I proffer another piece of controversial trivia?

I am led to believe that Berwick-upon-Tweed is still at War with Germany from WW1 - or possibly has smoked the peace pipe since, but only in the last decade or two.
The story goes/went that B-u-T, being right on the border between England and Scotland, has flip-flopped between the two countries since time immemorial.
Because of this, it is cited separately in the full title of Great Britain (where appropriate) - you know the one - which lists the whole Empire, islands, colonies, protectorates, commonwealth, dependencies et al.
When the Armistice document was drafted in 1918, which required the full citation of the Empire, Berwick-upon-Tweed was omitted erroneously; hence just the one town remained at war in perpetuity (unless it's been tidied up recently).

There's a nice fact for the day!

Whisks

Good grief, Whisks! And there I was thinking that at least the dates of the First World War are uncontested and nicely tidy.

I'm back! Interesting posts flying back and forth...

Spangles, as to your question about the non-political Regency period, opinions differ more widely than about the modern periods for a war! Wikipedia says 1795 onwards; but Prinny set up his own party house with a hefty royal allowance at the age of 21 in 1783; I've read articles about him having affairs with married women from the age of 17 or 18, so he began influencing society much earlier than 1790's - I would guess around 1780. He influenced trend-setters who watched the royal upstart - er, I mean offspring - and was someone anyone who wanted to be anyone copied. There is some interesting information about the Prince of Wales on www.georgianindex.net.

Whisks, that's an interesting tidbit of history - thanks for sharing it!