A Kink in my Grammar

Sat, Jul 31 2010 09:45am IST 1
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
I was listening this morning to an old Kinks hit from 1965 on 'Sounds of the Sixties' called 'See my friend sail across the river'.

Question: what part of speech is 'sail'?
As a normal verb: 'My friend sails across the river' it would have an 's', or 'My friends sail across the river' - no 's' with a plural subject.
But neither 'See my friend sail across the river' nor 'See my friends sail across the river' have an 's' on 'sail'.
You could substitute 'sailing' (a present participle?) but is 'sail' a participle in this construction, too, without and 'ing'?

Can anyone throw any light, please?

Cool

Sat, Jul 31 2010 01:43pm IST 2
Weens
Weens
993 Posts
Is it not just present tense? Der! I'm useless with this kind of thing.
Sat, Jul 31 2010 01:44pm IST 3
Weens
Weens
993 Posts
Is it not the word 'See' as a verb that makes it sail instead of sails
Sat, Jul 31 2010 02:05pm IST 4
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
Well, yes it is, Weens, but it can't be just present tense. If it were it would take an 's' with a singular subject. 'Friend' is actually the object of 'see'; 'sail across the river' is some sort of subordinative clause, but I still don't know what part of speech 'sail' is. Undecided

Cool
Wed, Aug 18 2010 05:00pm IST 5
Persia
Persia
71 Posts
Hi Tony! Sorry it's taken me so long to see this - pathetic, but life gets too busy sometimes!

My gut reaction would be that "sail" is in the infinitive form here; if you turned it into a question, "Do you see my friend sail across the ocean?" the "do" helping verb pops up, making the "see" the main verb. I haven't tested that against other examples, but that's my "English teacher" instinct. I hope that helps!
Wed, Aug 18 2010 05:27pm IST 6
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
Infinitive, eh? Thanks, Persia. I hadn't realised you can have an infinitive without the 'to', but that would certainly explain why it never takes an 's'. So definitely not a participle without an 'ing', then?

Cool
Thu, Aug 19 2010 01:01am IST 7
Persia
Persia
71 Posts
Definitely not a participle, which is a verb form that can act as an adjective or a noun; since it's acting as a verb here (and not even as a gerund, which is the -ing form of a noun), I'd bet on infinitive (which can be with or without "to"). Tricky, that sail, ain't it? Wink
Wed, Mar 23 2011 10:00am GMT 8
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
I've just revisited this Persia, and I'm still wondering. If it had been, 'See my friend about to sail across the river,' it is obviously the infinitive and describes the moment before the crossing starts. 'See my friend sail across the river,' however, describes the actual crossing; it's a different sentence altogether. Can we still definitely say that 'sail' is the same part of speech in both instances?

Cool
Wed, Mar 23 2011 10:17am GMT 9
Barry Walsh
Barry Walsh
52 Posts
Tony, Is it that sail, in speech at least, refers to 'him' (my friend) which makes it sound fine and, even on the page, it looks fine.
Wed, Mar 23 2011 10:49am GMT 10
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts

Fine, it may be, PK, but I want to know what part of speech it is - how to decline it.

Cool

Thu, Mar 24 2011 11:19am GMT 11
Persia
Persia
71 Posts
Hi Tony! If by decline you mean conjugate, check out this link: http://conjugator.reverso.net/conjugation-english-verb-sail.html
If that doesn't OD you on sailing, I don't know what will! Wink
I still think the original sentence is the infinitive; anything else wouldn't really make sense in that structure.
In the "about to" future structure, it's the "about to" that tells you the action is forthcoming (rather than the infinitive + to carrying that information); but the second example you give is actually not time-specific; it could be itself a type of infinitive structure, if that makes sense - it might be found in a poem, for instance, when the timing is not as important as the action. In either instance, it's still the verb. I might have even confused myself this time aroundFoot in mouth, but I hope that helps!
Thu, Mar 24 2011 11:36am GMT 12
Barry Walsh
Barry Walsh
52 Posts
In that case Tony, I think it's similar to the simple French imperative (to whoever is listening/reading) 'regarde/regardez mon ami qui.... As for declension, I think that's it for the imperative: just singular or plural versions.
Thu, Mar 24 2011 03:50pm GMT 13
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
That seems a great grammar site Persia. Thanks. Doesn't have my example, though Frown
So, it's conjugate for verbs - and decline for nouns? It's a long time since O-levels Smile
You could make up a joke about the noun that was held captive by verbs but declined his conjugal rights.

PK: I did wonder about the imperative. The 'See' in the sentence is imperative, but the 'sail' is not the same as the 'see', so I guess it can't be that.

Cool
Fri, Mar 25 2011 11:29pm GMT 14
Persia
Persia
71 Posts
You lost me.
Conjugate is for verbs; declension is for pronouns, nouns, articles and adjectives (also known as an inflection): e.g. goose / geese; Stephan / Stephanie; penny / pennies. Declension reflects gender, number, or case. Just to make sure we're on the same page.
I'm not sure anymore what the question is, but I still think the answer is infinitive. Wink
Sun, May 15 2011 06:29pm IST 15
Mark Galliford
Mark Galliford
2 Posts
It's a bare infinitive; that is, without 'to'. Think how you would construct the sentence if the verb in question was 'to be'. "Watch him be a compete idiot" not "Watch him is..." You can use the same structure with help ("help me make it through the night"), make ("go on then, make me do it") , let ("Let me entertain you") and many other verbs.
Sun, May 15 2011 10:10pm IST 16
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
Right, thanks, Mark. A 'bare infinitive'; I'd never heard of that, but it sounds a good name for what it obviously is. Great!

Cool
Mon, Jun 6 2011 12:59am IST 17
Persia
Persia
71 Posts
Ah, so you didn't lose me after all TonyTongue out; "bare" infinitive is a name I've not heard in a LONG time, but it's what I referred to as infinitive without the 'to', so thanks for the confirmation, Mark!
Mon, Jun 6 2011 10:45am IST 18
Tony
Tony
1984 Posts
Hi Persia, how are you? Well, I guess that just about wraps it up then - 10 months on Laughing. Thanks again to you and Mark. (I bet The Kinks never knew what they had written!)

Cool

Please login or sign up to post on this network.
Click here to sign up.