| Thu, Jan 22 2009 03:41pm GMT 1 |

The WordCloud
202 Posts
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Howdy all!
Giving feedback is a skill. The better WordClouders are at giving
feedback, the more success we'll all enjoy. So here are our tips
for giving effective critiques ...
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Always start with a positive. Doesn't matter how many
books you may have had published, receiving feedback is always
a bit wince-inducing. So start with something nice, and end
that way too if you can.
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Be honest. Publishing is bedevilled by bland, nice and
evasive feedback. That's useless. If you think a certain
chapter isn't working, the author needs you to say so.
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Be respectful. It should always be possible to give
negative feedback in a respectful way. Please do as you would
be done by. If you do inadvertently cause offence, be quick to
say sorry!
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Respond to the writer's request. If someone is asking
you for help with their characterisation, then the more you can
say about that the better.
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Be specific. The more you illustrate your comments
with examples drawn from the text, the more useful it'll be.
It'll also force you to understand how writing works in a way
that will help you in your own work. Honest, guv!
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Be expert. By giving good feedback to others you are
training your own critical faculties, in a way which will
really help you analyse and improve your own work. The more you
understand about writing technique, the more your skills will
improve. Do check out the Writing Technique pages of on the
Word Cloud Discussions boards. You can go back to these time
and again, and you'll learn more each time.
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Get personal. If you find you and a group of writers /
critiquers are working well together, then form a Group on the
Groups tab above. That'll bolster your mutual commitment and
chances of success.
Thank you very much indeed for offering feedback. It's a huge
service that you do to others ... and we hope that others will do
just the same for you.
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| Fri, Jan 30 2009 12:00pm GMT 2 |

crystal
8 Posts
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All wise advice - to which I would add, critiquing a work in
progress is not the same as the kind of literary criticism
practised in schools or universities. They want to look clever and
either debunk or make you love a piece of work. We want to help the
writer write the best work of which they are capable which means
that you have to try and understand what they are trying to do and
how they might get there. Its easy to give yourself a cheap thrill
by slagging off someone's work but it's much harder to help them
make that work better.
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| Sun, Feb 15 2009 01:07pm GMT 3 |

Philippa
2 Posts
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I would also add that before critiquing it is important for the
critic to be honest with themselves. To admit tastes,
dispositions, prejudices. If you cant stand the first person
present in a narrator, then it will govern enthusiasm. If
admitted then the writer can evaluate your criticisms in spite of
it. Having joined Authonomy (for the past six months) in the hope
of genuine criticism from a sampling of different readers, so as
to get a portrait of how a work 'comes across' and whether there
are glaring deficiencies that different readers all comment on,
instead it has become a competitive schmmoozing mutual ascent to
the Editors Desk.
I hope that if work is posted here ( will decide about that
later) I might find readers who I can help and who might help in
turn to improve what they undersatnd I intended, and not what
they imagine I should have intended instead.
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| Tue, Mar 3 2009 10:09pm GMT 4 |

Lizzy
391 Posts
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Thanks this is helpful. I feel rather ill equipped to make comments
and give advise on other peoples work, but this has helped.
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| Wed, Mar 4 2009 09:08am GMT 5 |

EmmaD
1797 Posts
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I think the important thing is to differentiate between making
comments - which as long as they follow Harry's guidelines,
everyone's entitled to make - and giving advice about what to do
instead, which is a whole different thing, and is where your
expertise and/or experience in the genre, or lack of either, come
into play
Of course, if you feel that, say, Chapter 4 goes on too long
without enough happening, you should say that, even if with the
caveat that you like fat action thrillers, and this is a
crystalline literary miniature, so your reactions may not be
calibrated appropriately. And of course you can suggest that
hiding a bomb in the babycarriage might be a good way of getting
things moving. But you don't have to come up with
suggestions if none occur, and, equally, you mustn't be miffed if
the writer doesn't do what you suggest. (You'd be amazed at the
way some commenters sulk/rage in those circumstances, and at the
way some writers sulk/rage at the suggestion that not every word
of their first draft is yet perfect.)
Your chief function as a critiquer is to supply reactions, and
what the writer does about them is up to them. In fact, learning
to use feedback is an incredibly important part of learning to
write. Of course, among writers who have got to know each other
and the piece in question, suggestions can develop into a really
fruitful dialogue which goes on as the piece develops. But that's
a bonus.
Even professionally, I always take notice of what my editors say
(my agent is also the most fantastic editor), because if those
professional expert readers see a problem, there is a problem, by
definition, and I need to do something about it. But how
I solve the problem without wrecking the integrity of the book is
up to me.
Do we have a thread anywhere, as a pair to this, on how to use
feedback effectively. Hmmm.... (On the other hand, I've got a
novel to write.)
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| Wed, Mar 4 2009 04:52pm GMT 6 |

Tony
1979 Posts
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Good points, Emma.
In my youth, when I couldn't make up my mind between two
alternatives I use to toss a coin - not that I always went with the
throw. But when I saw how the coin landed my instantaneous reaction
was either, "Ah, good" or, "Oh, no" and I THEN I knew what I really
wanted, which was what I did.
I should think it's a bit the same with critical feedback. Our
instant, momentary, reaction, before our predjudices cut in, should
indicate if it's the sort of suggestion we might think of taking on
board, or not. And even if we don't we can store up other people's
suggestions for future work. I think critiques can be a great
source of inspiration and, as somebody said here, a little while
ago, even writing them stands us in good stead to better our own
writing.
Write on.
Tony
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| Wed, Mar 4 2009 05:58pm GMT 7 |

EmmaD
1797 Posts
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I tossed a coin to see which of the two narrators in my first
published novel got the happy ending. (Two sad endings too
miserable, two happy endings too cheesy). And I can't even remember
which won, because as you say, by the time the coin lands you know
which it has to be.
When it comes to feedback, I think you're quite right, some of it
rings a bell - however reluctantly - and some plainly doesn't. But
you have to listen for that bell through your own static of 'But I
like it like that' or 'But it'll be too difficult to change!' or
'But it's characterisation/scene setting' (neither of which is a
good enough excuse for it to stay). Depending on your wiring, of
course, the static can, alternatively be 'I knew it was all
terrible and I'll never be a writer' or 'Oh God, they hate it all
and I'm a shit writer, just like my English teacher said...' which
is just as pointless.
Emma
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| Sat, Mar 14 2009 05:56pm GMT 8 |

Lizzy
391 Posts
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I don't know why but I find critiquing really difficult. I want to
do it because I do love reading other people's work. I still feel
really ill equipped for doing so. I have tried a few times but have
failed miserably.
I guess practise makes perfect!
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| Sun, Apr 12 2009 08:34am IST 9 |

Kate.J
79 Posts
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I do too, Nettie, I waver between thinking my comments will be
hypercritical and unfair because I have missed the point, or be
gushy and unhelpful because I have not been critical enough. So
when I do grasp the nettle, I hope my first "victim" will forgive
me ...
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| Mon, Apr 13 2009 06:22pm IST 10 |

Lizzy
391 Posts
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Hi Kate
Glad it's not just me! I always get fair and honest critiques. I
would like to be able to offer the same back. I guess I am
learning.
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| Sun, May 3 2009 03:55pm IST 11 |

scatterbee
19 Posts
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May be slightly off topic but I think Tony and EmmaD's coin
flipping tip is a good one, I can relate that back to similar
situations I've had (not just to writing, you can apply it to
pretty much anything I think) and know you're right, it really does
help bring your gut reaction out to the front and point you in the
right direction. Still, I'm often loathe to let go of one path
completely and head off down another route... and unfortunately
it's then you have to do what the read wants! :)
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| Tue, Jul 14 2009 07:56pm IST 12 |

Pride.James
99 Posts
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Responding your feeling about what you have read can be all
positive with no negatives at all. if you like what you have read
then say so, if you didn't then say that as well. people needing
encouragement as well as criticism, if you totally liked what you
have read them say so. The writers like to read how their work has
affected other people good, bad or indifferent.
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| Thu, Aug 20 2009 10:19pm IST 13 |

Minxie
206 Posts
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I'm trying to be constructive with my opinions, but I am still
learning myself!!! Even so, if I think something I say may help
or inspire someone to carry on, I would only say that if I meant
it and I think that is important.
I try to think of reading someone's work as drinking a glass of
wine... I don't know anything about wine? All I know is if it
tastes nice and I really want another glass, it must mean that I
enjoyed it and want more. It doesn't mean anything to me how much
it cost, where it came from or who made it, as I know nothing
about wine? So all I can comment on is if I liked it, and if I
would have more if it was on offer... Even though it isn't
commenting on anything 'technical' I hope this helps some writers
on the site, even if it's just a tiny bit?
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| Thu, Aug 20 2009 10:28pm IST 14 |

Weens
993 Posts
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I think that is a great analogy Minxie. Let's face it, most people
want to know if you 'liked' what they have written. If you liked
it, then it's an odds on certainty, so will other people. If you
didn't like it, then it is a possibility that there is something
wrong with it (unless it is the subject matter you dislike).
Telling a writer whether you like their work or not, can be just as
useful to them as giving technical feedback. I'm in the same boat
as you. I just know whether I like it or not. However, since I have
joined this site, I am learning about the technical stuff. I knew
nothing about POV, passive v active, changing tenses and handling
flashbacks. I don't profess to be an expert in any of these, but I
am learning how to spot them, and I find it easier to see in other
people's work than my own. I think as long as you are honest and
tell someone how their writing made you feel, then that is valuable
feedback.
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| Fri, Dec 4 2009 11:55pm GMT 15 |

Freaky
163 Posts
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Always start with a positive. Doesn't matter how many
books you may have had published, receiving feedback is always a
bit wince-inducing. So start with something nice, and end that
way too if you can
What if there isn't a positive? That to me doesn't imply that the
negative is meant harshly. Some of the pieces i'v read on here
are written in such a way it has distracted me from what they are
actually trying to say, so it's hard to comment on the story. If
people need help, softening the blow doesn't do that. If people
are just being honest, it won't come across as being harsh or
rude. What to me is rude, is if people were to bang on about how
much better than you they are in their criticism, which I haven't
once found on this forum, and that makes me want to stick
around.
When i first started writing i thought it would all work out
first time around, until i posted a couple of chapters on a
writers forum, then i learned through criticism that it's nowhere
near as good as i thought it was. As painful as it was, it opened
my eyes to how I'm actually going to make it work.
Now I know more, I realise I don't know enough.
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| Sat, Dec 5 2009 12:00am GMT 16 |

Freaky
163 Posts
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or maybe I'm just too pessimistic
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| Sun, Dec 6 2009 05:37pm GMT 17 |

SM Worsey
617 Posts
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I'm never sure what to do if I read summat that I really hate. I
try to put myself in the shoes of the intended audience (e.g.
vampire-loving teenagers) and look at it that way, but I still come
across stuff that I just feel is really badly written, by someone
who says they are trying to get published. (That hasn't happened on
this site, BTW). In such situations, I just avoid reviewing.
For example, I recently read the first chapter of a story that was
basically a long-winded description of the main character, his
history, his views on life, the universe and everything, and full
details of the woman he was in love with. Absolutely nothing
happened and I felt there was nothing new to learn about the
character. I didn't review, because the only honest response would
have been to say "I think you should completely re-write this as a
STORY." Was skipping it the the best thing to do?
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| Wed, Dec 9 2009 05:52am GMT 18 |

Malcolm
607 Posts
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I try to be positive, though I'm not always sure how well I get
that across and like most on this site, I'm still learning myself
so I try to get THAT across too.
Reviewing something you absolutely hate is tricky. If it doesnt
interest me and others are critiquing then I just leave them to it.
If its just plain bad writing I try to pick out something they are
doing well and comment on that before the less nice bits. I think
the unpleasant bits need to be accompanied by a "why", not just
"this need a complete rewrite". Skipping bad writing just means no
one learns anything. As a by product of critiquing for me is that I
end up thinking about my own writing in the process.
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| Mon, Apr 5 2010 04:34am IST 19 |

QBall
19 Posts
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This is my first post, so I feel I have to take care and not ruffle
feathers.
Rope & Wire is a website where six of my tales are featured as
I am now a 'spotlighted' author.
On this site is a place called the Bullpen where wannabee writers
submit stories for feedback.
I tend to go overboard at times, BUT I always strive to be
fair.
My advice is easy, Edit, Edit, Edit, then Edit again.
If anyone is interested in my editing skills (or lack) they may be
read on this site.
Comments please.
Oh, yes, Hi everyone.
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| Mon, Apr 5 2010 09:28am IST 20 |

Aiyla
454 Posts
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*The Easter Bunny is a little behind schedule. He leaves a bag of
chocolate eggs*
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| Thu, Jul 1 2010 10:08am IST 21 |

mark
31 Posts
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i reckon it'd be wise to practice your critiquiing just like you do
your writing. before you post a critique, go down the list and
check you're following the guidelines. to wander in and think
you'll be brilliant at critiquing would, i think, be about as
sensible as walking into a martial arts dojo with no training and
challenging the instructor to a fight.
likewise with writing; i noticed one poster above who, like me,
thought his first crack at writing was the business, and he was
soon cut down to size. it's just not that simple unfortunately and
the point is that there are so many ways of doing it badly
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| Thu, Jul 1 2010 07:45pm IST 22 |

Tony
1979 Posts
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Your point is valid, Mark,
but I'd suggest that (unlike writing, if it's intended for
publication) critiquing doesn't always have to be masterly. It
should certainly, always be honest, never vindictively slating
nor over-indulgently fawning. But, while the more expert advice
will be particularly helpful, not everyone here feels able to
provide that. Some have held back altogether for that reason. Yet
everyone can say what they liked or what didn't seem to make
sense to them and those sort of comments are just as helpful to
the writer as long as they are specific. So any of us can give
useful feed back. Don't just say, 'I really enjoyed this.' That's
nice, but not helpful. If you can add, 'particularly the way you
managed to get across the atmosphere when your mc first entered
the pub, but I didn't catch on until much later that the
bartender was her ex...' that sort of thing. It's specific and
therefore helpful, and anybody can do that.
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| Thu, Jul 1 2010 09:04pm IST 23 |

mark
31 Posts
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fair point tony and i think it would also be helpful when crtiquing
to state where you pitch yourself, ie let them know whether you're
a first-time critic or established editor and so on.
i had a cousin whose letters have just been published in which he
says to one friend, after reading another's ms, "she's never going
to improve if i don't give her my honest opinion". in this case she
asked his opinion because she knew he was a novelist as well as
reading ms for a publisher.
but... i got an awful crit once from an anonymous claw-sharpener
whose comments were proved largely wrong in the end, and i can
honestly say it's the only crit i ever had that did all harm and no
good. so i'm naturally wary of commenting on other people's
writing, particularly as i'm an awfully fussy reader; but i might
give it a shot once i get past my current deadline...
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| Fri, Jul 2 2010 03:54am IST 24 |

Weens
993 Posts
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This brings the argument full circle, you have to decide when to
follow your own judgement. When posting for critique, you are
putting yourself up for criticism, which bits you take and which
bits you chuck out is completely up to you. There are ways of
giving a critique nicely, it should always be constructive and not
destructive and to me, that's key.
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| Fri, Jul 2 2010 08:19pm IST 25 |

mark
31 Posts
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absolutely. and to suggest, as someone did above, that there might
sometimes be nothing at all positive you can say about someone's
work, i think you can always at least commend them on having the
courage to put something down on paper and then put it out there
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