The Word Cloud

When you post something for feedback you're putting yourself at the mercy of people who may be complete strangers, and you have no control over the critiques you receive. You do have absolute control over how you handle those critiques. So, you have to learn to accept that you'll probably receive a whole bunch of different critiques, some good, some bad, some helpful, some not, and you need to develop the ability to filter them, which takes time.

By the way, even a first-time critic can provide useful feedback sometimes, and even established editors can give conflicting advice.

There's no need to be wary of commenting. An honest opinion is always worth its weight.

Commending people for having the courage to put something down on paper and put it out there sounds rather patronising to me. In my experience, most people don't want to be patronised. They just want honest opinions presented in a constructive and helpful manner.

Cheers,
Bob

oh well i was trying to be as passive as i possibly could. sorry if that comes across as patronising.

personally i'd rather be patronised than be told by an anonymous critic that they can't think of even one single positive thing to say about my writing

It can be difficult, Mark and Bob. I think mostly the Cloud manages to do pretty well, even if we do sometimes err on the lenient side. The worst that happens then is that the writer misses out on more accurate feedback and maybe gets a slightly false impression of the standard of their writing, but that can eventually be put right. If too disparaging a critique were to be given, it might put the writer off altogether and perhaps deny the world a future JK Rowling, but certainly deny the writer much future fulfilment, even if they were never to make it into print.

agreed tony, it's a minefield.

and i think we should ban the use of the word "subjective" as it is so often used as a general get-out clause.

I've been lucky in that i've gotten a lot of positive feedback, along with a lot of stuff i could really use.

hmm yes well so far i've held off posting or critiquing here. i enjoy reading the debates that go on, and i think harry bingham is a man who is well worth watching. he's helped me enormously over the years and i value his opinions.

i don't say i've nothing left to learn, but i do feel i've reached the stage where i can allow myself the luxury of only seeking comments from the trade. even they disagree with each other, which leaves me confused enough without getting anonymous critiques!

Mark said:
"oh well i was trying to be as passive as i possibly could. sorry if that comes across as patronising.

personally i'd rather be patronised than be told by an anonymous critic that they can't think of even one single positive thing to say about my writing"

I didn't think you personally were being patronising.

I have seen stories about which I could find nothing positive to say, but it's not that common, although I personally tend to focus on the negatives when I write a critique. But if someone gives you a critique that you don't like or agree with, why worry about it? It goes back to what I said earlier, that we open ourselves up to all kinds of critiques and have no control over what we receive, so we have to instead control how we respond to them. There can't be many people in online forums who haven't had what they'd consider to be a poor critique, but that's part of what we should expect from such places.

On balance, the better critiques make the experience worthwhile.

Mark said:
"and i think we should ban the use of the word "subjective" as it is so often used as a general get-out clause."

So much about writing is subjective, though. It's in the nature of the beast.

Cheers,
Bob

I've been wondering - is it appropriate to give editing suggestions on a thread? I've been doing this with short pieces and extracts but I do wonder if it's an infringement in some way. Sometime, though, seeing an edit can help the writer to judge what alterations may be needed in their work (baring in mind the editor's word isn't gospel). What do other Cloudies think?

I have always valued the feedback I receive on here. It has always been constructive. I haven't agreed with every point, so obviously I just thanked the person for feedback and ignored their points.

Nashelle, I was and still am very grateful for any editing thoughts a reader has. I can't see anyone finding it a problem, as I said before, if the writer doesn't agree, they can just ignore that point. We may err on the lenient side sometimes with our feedback, but even on those occasions the feedback is still constructive. Whether a writer can apply the feedback is another story.

I had some feedback today on my first ever piece of writing. All the comments made were full of helpful suggestions and constructive criticism, "I didnt like that bit, but, try this or try that" Brilliant thats why we put stuff on here. However there was one bit of feedback that was, innacurate and not constructive. "I dont like it..." and? If you read something you don't like but have no suggestions then perhaps its best to scoot along and read something else that does capture your imagination and feedback critically but constructively on that instead. I read over 200 degree assignments every year for my students and I always strive to find the good, point out the bad and give my opinion on what should be done to improve the text. The bad feedback I got today (I dont mean bad about my work just badly written) upset me and has bugged me. Don't kick some one when they are bearing their soul for all to see, have a little thought or like I said before move on. If you care enough to give feedback, care enough to write it well.
Gary

I totally agree, Gary, it’s quite hectic pouring out your soul, just to have it stomped on by someone who is purely looking for something to say. Be constructive or keep it to yourself. I don't mean that in a horrible unappreciative kind of way, just that we are all so different and if it isn't your cup of tea, then maybe just say so.

Hello - it's an interesting thread to a critique post. Accept that we cannot please all of the people all of the time. Then the bug will go away. Sorry, don't mean to be patronising.

What is important, is to look behind the comment. What was it that hit the reader so strongly? Negative feedback can be an opportunity to re-appraise out work - look at it from a fresh angle - perhaps do some research.

I am reasonably comfortable in receiving such feedback - a judicious kick up the ass can make me strive to become better - nothing is worse than false complacency - or denial that anything is wrong. A writer's ego.

I agree with GP - it is soul output - and most of the genre I read on this site is fantasy or a sub genre of fantasy. Fantasy per se is not my cup of tea - but I will offer my perspective if I feel I can contribute to making it a better piece. In some ways it makes the comment more objective.

The bottom line Gary - is to press ahead - your first attempt is good enough to persevere. I'll share with you my first M/S, which I thought was the bees knees. One year later, with the help and guidance picked up on route, including our WC - I re-appraised it. It was technically unsound, and some dialogue was stilted and dreadful. I spent two months re-writing it. Now it is passable, because the story line held up - but it's not a patch on what I should be able to produce on my best days with a following wind going downhill...

Another real life example is to read a little about Stuart Mac Bride. I think he actually wrote 3 before the third was published. The fourth bombed and the fifth and subsequent made him an international best-seller.
Whew - kind regards
stephen

I think there is a distinction to be made between the normal courtesy that should be expected on any forum, and the courtesy involved in giving and receiving literary criticism.

The normal courtesies of a forum are much like those in a conversation. There are the usual issues such as length of acquaintance, politeness, awareness of sensitivities etc. but these are made all the harder online, because of the absence of all those helpful clues such as tone of voice, facial expression, interactions away from the forum, and so on. I would probably take great care over a posting until pretty sure how it was going to be read. I would also, probably, avoid saying what I thought was bad about a post I was replying to, unless either it was plainly grossly offensive, or the question had been specifically asked.

In a formal critical relationship, say where a MS has been submitted for a paid assessment, then one would expect the situation to be different. Here, although we do not expect an outright assault, it would be discourteous for the editor/assessor to avoid negative criticism. I submitted a MS to WW a while back. It contained a series of vignettes, little summaries of books being read by characters in the main story. I worked hard on these. I thought they were cleverly done, often echoing and shedding light on the main themes. ‘Not so,’ said my editor, ‘ they’re actually rather boring.’ I took the point – if a reader is bored, then they’re probably boring – cut them out and got on with the revision.

OK, the rather long-winded point of all this is that on this forum, as far as I can see, it’s a bit of a half-way-house. It’s part conversational, friendly, chatty, forum, and part formal criticism. This can be a hard thing to juggle with and is obviously the reason why the WW folks who made the initial posts here, set out some guidelines.

Well, I’m afraid I can’t offer any solutions. I don’t find it too difficult to be criticised because although I’m very committed to writing, I’m not at all precious about my work. I may love a passage, or a phrase, but I don’t necessarily expect you to. And I’m quite happy for you to say you hate it. If I couldn’t stand having one person say ‘bad’ things about my work, then how could I expect to share it with the potentially unlimited audience that publication would bring?

On the other hand, when giving criticism, I guess the posters should remember that this is a forum as well as a place to formally criticise work. A casual piece of negative criticism may be no more than a plain statement of how something was perceived/read at the time, but for somebody who isn’t used to that, or maybe is in forum-mode at that point, it can appear to be an unwarranted, personal, attack.

I haven’t been here long or posted much, but by and large it appears to work pretty well (apart from a long piece of criticism I wrote the other day, which was not exactly 100% off target, but not 100% on target either. I suppose the other thing to remember is that we’re not all skilled professional editors).

Hello all,

I haven’t had much interaction on this community site and probably should start, but the reason I’m posting a message here is to request assistance in my writing endeavours.

I have a blog http://stephen-leslie-france.blogspot.com/ with the primary focus on keeping my writing skills going, but in attempting to launch my writing career, I’m going to use this Blog as evidence of my writing abilities. The problem is, the whole point of a Blog is to have followers/subscribers, to show that you’re writing is interesting to the public.

I’m humbly requesting that fellow writers check out my site and if any of the subject matters take your interest, please click the FOLLOW tab and follow the instructions. It only takes a minute, but would be a great help.

Thanks

Stephen

Hello all,

I haven’t had much interaction on this community site and probably should start, but the reason I’m posting a message here is to request assistance in my writing endeavours.

I have a blog http://stephen-leslie-france.blogspot.com/ with the primary focus on keeping my writing skills going, but in attempting to launch my writing career, I’m going to use this Blog as evidence of my writing abilities. The problem is, the whole point of a Blog is to have followers/subscribers, to show that you’re writing is interesting to the public.

I’m humbly requesting that fellow writers check out my site and if any of the subject matters take your interest, please click the FOLLOW tab and follow the instructions. It only takes a minute, but would be a great help.

Thanks

Stephen

These are some really good points, I wish I’d found this years ago.

I’ve been trying to give good feedback for years, as I know the value of good feedback. But I always feel like I fall short. This has really helped.

I think this site is great. I am uploading a blog that I have written, in many parts, so it can be criticised as much as it needs to. Insults, negativity are all good as this will let me know if my writing is achieving what I wanted it to do. The people on this site are very honest and no bullshit is in their response. I am loving it. If I can get feedback on each part individually, thats great.

In the end, If you want to read, you will, if you dont, then you wont. Thanks to anyone who has slammed my blog so far, or will in the future. I have my own writing style that has spelling mistakes, bad grammer, its poorly put together also with no descriptions of characters or plots...its simply a blog..

All feedback is welcome.

When I want to read a novel, I write one.
(Benjamin Disraeli, in W. Moneypenny and G. Buckle, Life of Benjamin Disraeli Vol 6)

Time for a change. No more "I think this site is great. I am uploading a blog..." etc.

I found that really helpful and feel honesty is very important, but as someone who is young and not an experienced writer i do feel bad giving negative comments when my own is probably no better.

Crimefan, I'm sure you do a lot of reading, and giving feedback as a reader is just as valuable. Even if it's simply to say that you're interested and would read on.

Yeah, i've done lots of character and plot stuff so i can always comment on that, i just try to read what other people have said in the other areas and try to pick up on those things next time.

I try to honest in feedback as well polite. I hope not have offend anyone

I joined Yahoo Answers when i first started writing but it's all kids on there, and they'd ask for honest feed back, so you'd give it. They'd ignore all the positive and have a go at you for the negative stuff.
They asked questions like:
What should i name my character?
Can anyone give me a plot?
That's their job isn't it?
Some people do ask for honesty but you give it and they can't take it so i'm always really dubious, but then someone told me, if they've the guts to ask then you have to have the guts to be honest.