The Word Cloud

Hi ,

My book the carousel has madness in it... and although I have a certain understanding of it (!) I can't seem to write about it in a way that isn't literally saying he was mad . She was mad. Do you know what I mean ? I don't want to tell the reader I want them to know in a subtle way.

Comments and suggestions please!

Katie,

A writer should write about he/she knows through experience.
If that isn't possible, then do research; because otherwise you are groping in the dark, and your writing will not be credible.
I am not knowledgeable about the condition of madness, but if I wanted to write a novel that had 'mad' characters, then I would look at some psychological case studies.
There's no easy alternative, unless you want to write for a very young age group.

Katie, the great motto is not to feel obliged to write what you know - most writers' live are, after all, very boring - but to write what you want and make us believe you know it; whether it's the 5th century BC, or the Planet Zog, or 19th Century Bedlam...

I think what you're talking about is showing, not telling: it'll be about writing what this character sees and perceives and does through the prism/prison of their own mental state. If you can get us to inhabit that skewed (but often within itself quite logical) emotional and factual perspective, then we'll believe in it, while knowing that to someone sane it might all not appear like that at all.

I always think of the portrayal of T S Eliot's first wive, in the play Tom and Viv. As the play portrayed it She was going very dotty, and was distressed by his apparently cutting herself off from her: she wanted to give him a present of a box of chocolates, but the door to Faber & Faber wouldn't let her in, so, very logically, she melted the chocolates and poured them through the letter box...

One novel that comes to mind is Antonia White's Beyond The Glass, which is a remarkable portrait of mental breakdown from the inside, but also from the outside. Penelope Mortimer also wrote a memoir which might provide insights about how to set about evoking this kind of thing. And Fiona Shaw, who was at York last year, wrote a memoir about postnatal pyschosis which I've heard is terrific, though I haven't read it yet to find out how she handles it.

Barbecue the rabbit, microwave the hamster, send Alan boy a love letter...

Emma - thanks for the recommendation on Beyond the Glass. I like books along those lines and hadn't heard of it.

I don't recommend The Bell Jar. I don't think John Onceupon does either ;) Really, mental breakdown never was so dull. Ho hum.

I dig the theme you seem to be suggesting - that it slowly starts to dawn on the reader that the person they're following isn't all there? Definitely a nice idea. A thread on here about short stories reminded me of one by Ian McEwan, I think in his collection First Love, Last Rites. Damn, I wish I could remember what it's called *scours internet*... it may have been Butterflies. Pretty sure it was.

It's not about madness, but it is about being drawn in by a character until it slowly dawns on you that he's not what you thought he was. You sort of suspect it, but then you convince yourself otherwise until it comes back to bite you. It's well done. Fast read if you want an example.

There's also quite a few authors who managed to land themselves in the loony bin or suffered mental illness at one stage or another. Looking into their lives and experiences can be fairly eye-opening. After all:

"Writing is a socially acceptable form of schizophrenia" - E.L. Doctorow

And we all know there's a fine line between genius and madness, right? ;)

Writing is license to explore hidden parts of ourselves. Feed our fascinations and pass those on to others. With madness or mental illness, there are many kinds. Most people suffering from mental illness are fairly high-functioning members of society, from depression to schizophrenia or bi-polar. Drugs can really get a lot of people back on their feet. So first you sort of need to look into different types of mental illness - each one's got a cycle and symptoms - and figure out which one is right for your character. Unless you're charting their initial descent, you're likely to need to check out which drugs they're on, too.

Most of the time - especially with depression - though not always, conditions are 'triggered'. The idea being that most of us have the propensity to derail, but usually it takes something to make it happen, be this sexual abuse, abandonment, bad experiences with drugs, violence, post-traumatic stress (especially in military and aid workers), counter culture shock, witnessing something terrible, something that makes us feel extremely guilty or ashamed - an accident - being bullied.

Finding the trigger will also give you more of a back story to unfold.

If you're finding it hard, try immersing yourself in media relating to the issues. Films are often very helpful.

Two of the best studies, I would say, are The Cabinet Of Dr. Caligari and Shutter Island. Both do exactly what you're describing, and what McEwan does - drawing you into a character until you believe their psychosis. You can watch Caligari online here, though it's extremely dated - from 1920. Shutter Island does it much more smoothly.

You can go from the softer end of the scale, something like Walk The Like (about Johnny Cash's breakdown) and Notes on a Scandal (about a woman's extremely destructive OCD) through to hardcore like House on Haunted Hill or The Human Centipede, which is a crude statement on criminal insanity, but don't expect to eat for a week ;) Madness can either be humanely explainable or royally revolting. Whichever way you wish to spin it.

I'm a huge fan of Terence McKenna and Stanislav Grof - the latter's work on LSD therapy for schizophrenia and depression are just unique. The former did a great wee snippet on Schizophrenic or Shamanic. Not to everyone's taste, but food for thought.

The difficult part I find with 'slow realisations' is not to make the start so slow that people lose interest. You have to have that suggestion of something to come without directly giving it away. But maybe if you've got some more specific examples we could chip in and make some suggestions?

Immerse yourself in the genre, do some research and slowly things will come to you. We all have a touch of madness - it's what makes us interesting ;)

Oh, somebody help me!

Maybe five, ten years ago – a book, and I desperately want the title! I thought it was called Ravelling, or Unravelling… but can’t find it.

Premise:

Young man thinks he’s going mad – or is mad (very hard to tell) – keeps getting floaty sensations, on meds because his brother thinks it’s best for him. Started ever since the disappearance of his kid sister.

Turns out he’s retreated into madness to avoid remembering seeing his older brother dissecting his sister (he’s now a doctor!) and sister is buried at the bottom of the garden – even mum knew about it but they all just allowed him to believe he was mad, rather than confront what had happened...

That sound familiar to anyone? Think it sold pretty well at the time. On the top ten list, I'm fairly sure.

Anyway, it’s a really good story about whether he’s mad or not, and why. You’re still sort of wondering by the end :)

Walk The Line

Oh to be able to edit ~sigh~

Barbecue the rabbit, microwave the hamster, send Alan boy a love letter...

Stephen, are you going to be the first ...
(and I'm not referring to rabbits and hamsters)

Some in-depth stuff here for a 13-year old to digest. I bet she's smart, though, and understands some of it.

You have no idea what I was reading at thirteen ;)

Somehow, I think it wasn't 'The tale of the flopsy bunnies.'

Rabbits, bunnies; it's all Stephen's fault.

Come on though - it's an interesting question - what were you reading at 13? ;)

All those Horrible History books and Point Horror weren't invented for twenty-somethings. We're all about the dark nitty-gritty at that stage in life. Parents only think we're not because they're often trying to blot out the memory of what they were up to back then ;)

At 13 I had just developed an interest in art, so my reading was limited to art books at the local library. I hadn't yet moved on to fiction; I had only just left behind comics (I remember Victor), and books about journeys by steam engine.
Thrilling, wasn't it.

Horror and sci-fi came a bit later.

To be honest, I wasn't ready for the nitty-gritty at 13. And I think mid 60's Britain was a much different place to the Britain of the 90's and on.

Considering I was reading Stephen King, Tom Sharpe and Jean M Auel when I was 13, I never really had any kind of concept of 'books for children'...

As for portraying madness / mental illness - just remember that what we read in fiction and see on the TV is rarely an accurate portrayal. Outwardly, it can actually be very difficult to tell who might be suffering from a mental illness - due to the stigma it carries, a lot of people (especially depressives) are very adept at hiding it. Often, the person you'd least expect has the most skeletons, so to speak.

'Smilers' - people who commit suicide but everyone says 'I didn't even know they were depressed - they seemed so happy'.

For a study on that sort of thing, google Bridgend. Very odd.

I took Terry Pratchett's Light Fantastic to reading time at school when I was ten. Can't say I understood it all, but I loved the cover art and I could pronounce the words. My teacher didn't half give me an odd look. Half impressed, half disturbed ;)

I was addicted to Point Horror by the age of twelve. Moved on to Stephen King around thirteen, fourteen but found him hard to stick with just because of the sheer size of his tomes. Mind you, I did start with IT. I think The Shining and Pet Cemetery were the only two I finished. Used to commute to my dad's in London every other weekend which was a couple of hours by train, so I got through a lot of reading. The only one that really got under my skin was Nemisis by Shaun Hutson. Never got to the end because it freaked me out that much! Probably seems a bit tame by today’s standards, compared to something like The Midnight Meat Train - but it was good. I was really into horror when I was young. Not so much now. I still like scary movies but, as a genre, I find it interests me less than it did.

I also picked up Pratchett at the age of 10 (and have been a huuuuuge fan ever since, if I am honest). Funny thing you mention Midnight Meat Train, because that was written quite early on (in the 80's, I think - I have it upstairs, but can't be arsed to go and check, lol. I do love me some Barker, though - he's one of my favourite authors), and probably before Nemesis (which I think I have somewhere...). The only book that got under my skin was Herbert's 'Domain' - although I read 'The Rats' and managed to get through that okay, Domain (one of it's sequels) really bothered me, and remains one of the only horror books I never actually finished.

I went through a huge King phase when I was around 13 - 14 precisely because the books were so huge - I think I was trying to prove how clever I was by reading massive books *rolls eyes at self*. I did read Lord of the Rings (or tried to) at 9 and remember not really understanding that, but pretending I did. I read it again when I was 12 and loved it, though (I think the cartoon helped somewhat!). I tended to just grab whatever I could find off my parents' bookshelf, and I was a bit of a Lisa Simpson at my local library, so they let me get books out that they possibly shouldn't have - I think if Lucy came home at 13 with 'The Mammoth Hunters', I would freak out! (Well, it is basically porn...)

I'm quite open about the nervous breakdown I had in my early 20s (I really believe that in order for these things to be accepted by society, people - especially those who have been through it and managed to come out the other side - need to be open and talk about it), but people still find it hard to believe that I had one...

Aaah, Pratchett is just unique. Such a shame really, though I very much admire his involvement with the pro-euthanasia movement. Must take a hell of a lot of courage to decide to spend the time you have left campaigning, especially on such a controversial subject :( The man is truly an icon in so many ways, and one the world is brighter for having known.

Now I feel embarrassed - I had no idea MMT was a book! :oO Wow. Me want. Although, does it have Bradley Cooper in? Because, really...even with his tongue ripped out and blood gushing from his gob, I'd still snog 'im. *shrug*

I remember Rats, but I don't think I finished it. It's hard for me because I actually quite like rats, I used to keep them as pets. And snakes. And I'm rather fond of certain insects. So it has to be something specific that pushes my buttons. It's like the whole thing about the Exorcist where she's throwing up in different colours and breaking every taboo - because one of them is bound to affect each member of the audience. Pull out all the stops, go for broke and disgust everyone, even if they're all disgusted at different things ;)

God, I watched a tragic attempt at a horror the other day. About two kids trapped in a house with a tiger during a hurricane. It was totally pointless because the tiger was beautiful and the kids were really annoying. I mean, really - whose side are you gonna be on? I keep meaning to read Cujo because I can see - just about - how you could get an hour long film out of that. But an entire book?

Oh, I lie - Insomnia, that's another SK I read. And probably the reason I didn't read any more. He's good - he's very good - but he's just unnecessarily long. The concepts are great, but to keep that rolling and rolling... sometimes it's okay, but mostly I just felt he could have made the same impact with less.

I know what you mean about proving a point ;) There's definitely something to having a big 'adult' book in your hand when you're half-grown. I just about got through The Hobbit, but wasn't a fan of Tolkien, I must admit. LoR never really appealed to me, which is strange because I did like fantasy. I used to write a lot of it - although, having said that, I can't remember reading much. Nowhere near as much as horror. I remember picking up an Anne McCaffrey once and not understanding what all the fuss was about.

Years later, probably around seventeen or so, I picked up Sorcerer’s Legacy by Janny Wurts and I adored it. Still, to this day, I refuse to re-read it in case I break the illusion that it was one of the best - certainly fantasy - books I've ever read. Short, sharp, to the point, thick with plot, easy reading. I was about to say: 'it's unusual to see a fantasy book that's a one-off' - but refreshing my memory I've just discovered it is part of a trilogy! Damn, now I guess I'm going to have to buy them...

Interesting. I also had a breakdown at twenty-one. It'd been building up since an early age and all came to a head. Must have been all that Stephen King, eh? ;) But in truth, you're right - people have a very fixed perception of mental illness (which is a sh!te term in itself - and why I love McKenna and Grof, who were and are (respectively) just spot on human beings).

Mostly I don't talk about it because I bore myself and others. The whole system of mental health care and society's approach to it is abhorrent. But, at the same time, I feel that was another lifetime ago for me and as terrible as it may sound, I have very little patience for re-visiting the subject today. Mostly I owe my own mental stability to time and entheogens, which isn't a conventional route. But it's a very personal thing. I think many people in the pit don't believe there's a way out - we're force fed that guff. Those who do climb out (often by their teeth) tend to turn into some of the strongest, most interesting people I've met. But as a society we tend to recognise the immediate: weak, or strong. We're seldom interested in the process or the cycles of being.

Right, it's beer o' clock :)

Really glad to have 'met' you Elysia :)

My posts wouldn't look so long if the posting space were a sensible width ;)

That's my excuse, and I'm sticking to it.

That or I'm a prolific waffler, and proud of it. Hang it, this is a writing forum, right? I'm writing.

^^D I wouldn't worry about the length of your posts - mine are rather infamously long and meandering!

Pratchett deserves some form of beatification as far as I am concerned - I love the man. No other way of putting it, really! As for MMT, it's the first book of The Books of Blood volume 1-3 by Clive Barker, and as far as I know (I have yet to see the film - I chose to see Dread instead, another Barker adaptation), the book is *a lot* nastier than the film. But then, that doesn't really surprise me - most of Barker's film adaptations only skim the surface of his literary works. It's one of the reasons I like horror books - far more scope to scare the bejeesus out of your audience... ;-)

When it comes to King, I much prefer his short stories (The Mist is my all time favourite tale of his), with the collection 'Skeleton Crew' being my ultimate favourite. Saying that, I actually really like Insomnia - it made me cry...

It's funny - I love writing fantasy, and some of my favourite books are fantasy, but I do find fantasy as a genre tiresome sometimes; it's just so overblown and up itself. I've lost count of the series I have tried to read and given up on, because they were quite frankly boring - to the point where I've read entire books where nothing literally happens (Eddings, I am looking at you!), and I think it gives fantasy on the whole a bad name. As it happens - yes, I am writing a fantasy novel, and yes, it is intended to be a trilogy, but that's it - once the trilogy is done, then it's done. I don't want to be one of these '20 volume vanity opus nightmares' that so many fantasy books seem to fall into! Just write the story and then leave it be.

I was 24 when I had my breakdown - I try to be open enough about it to 'normalise' it, but at the same time, it's not something I bounce up to people and tell willy nilly (like you said, it gets old pretty quickly!). It does disturb me how quickly people are to judge you when you've had a mental health problem, though - like my counsellor said: 'if you broke your leg, if you didn't go and seek help, have it put in plaster, get some painkillers and then possibly some physiotherapy to help you recover, people would think you were crazy. It's no different with depression - something isn't right, and you're seeking treatment to help it get better. End of story.' And so that's how I now view it. I even sought pre-emptive counselling to help me get through the aftermath of a traumatic birth experience; I decided that, rather than going through it a second time and just hoping for the best, I was going to work my demons out beforehand. And, so far so good, it has worked. I'm 32 weeks pregnant with my 2nd child, and feel far calmer and more able to cope with any complications that may come my way due to having had therapy before hand. But some people can't accept that - they see me seeking therapy as some kind of indicator that I am dangerously unbalanced, which I think is just sad.

I also agree that going through something like that makes you a stronger person - but only if you are willing to accept what happened and move on, I have a friend who has now been in counselling since she was 15 (she's now 28) - she knows she is prone to depression, but is still looking to 'blame' someone for it. In my experience, this won't happen until she accepts this facet of herself and allows herself to grow. If anything, her depression has become her crutch, her excuse - 'I can't do this, because I have a problem', if you will - and that's just as dangerous as not being able to accept the problem in the first place.

Nice to have met you, too! And good to find someone else who had climbed out of the pit, so to speak ;-)

Pratchett deserves some form of beatification

Dammit! I so almost wrote that! Yes. 100% Though, to be honest, I'm not sure the Catholic church totally appeals to him ;) Must be a better way of honouring him. How about 'Pratchett for God'? I'll paint the placards.

The Books of Blood

With a title like that, who could refuse? >;o)

The film is good. There's a word for this new genre of extremely graphic slashers and I can't remember what it's called... really bugging me. But it's brilliant, some really good use of CGI, it's come a long way. Part of you is wincing in horror whilst the other part is thinking 'wow, that's amazing how they did that...'

Shall grab a copy of the book. That's one thing about the film, it's unusual in that it's got a really strong storyline running through it for a horror.

What are his other adaptations? I don't know him so well, but perhaps I've seen something...

Did you ever read James Herbert's Haunted? I must have been about twelve or thirteen when I read that and fourteen when the film came out. I absolutely loved the book so much and the film must have been straight to DVD or something because I remember seeing it at the back end of Blockbusters one night. I was a fan of Aiden Quinn at the time, but the film just wasn't quite there. It felt watery in comparison to Herbert's book. It's hard to say what it was - it was fairly faithful to the story, but it so wasn't the book.

I haven't read King's shorts. Though I really do want to get around to The Body. I sob like a baby at Stand by Me every time. He said on the DVD extras that 'books and films are like apples and oranges - you like them both but for different reasons'. I loved that.

What you're saying about the problems with fantasy - that's exactly why Janny Wurts was refreshing with SL. It just cut through all the pretension - I felt - and told a very entertaining story. And it was fairly traditionalist in magic, kings, queens, politics etc. It wasn't too clever, so you fell straight into it. I think there's a lot of pressure on fantasy writers to do something 'new', something complicated. To invent continents, worlds, freakin' solar systems, each with a language and a culture and a.... it's lost the simplicity of storytelling in some respects. It's what science fiction would be without the science ;)

I'm probably one of the last generation who remembers life before the internet. The transition from FidoNet to InterNet. I grew up on text games and fell into MUDs, MOOs and MUSHes - I used to write for one and, around thirteen (that age again!), was totally immersed in one MUD in particular. By sixteen I had written my first novel-length piece. It started out as a character description and blossomed into an entire fantasy story. It was clumsy looking back, but still fairly advanced stuff for that age. I didn't write anything that long again for years. So, really, my founding roots are in fantasy. It was my inspiration, I invested a lot of time in it.

It does disturb me how quickly people are to judge you

People are quick to judge everything. It scared the crap out of me to be honest. Be it mental health or dress sense. I'm currently reading a book about Auschwitz by an amazing Italian writer (dead now unfortunately) and what astounds me more than anything is the way prisoners develop this hierarchy in which they judge one another - basically doing the oppressor’s job for them. The Stanford Prison Experiment. There's something very dark in human nature, and not the darkness of madness, but a viciousness. Leaves you cold. I think it takes intelligence to suffer depression. At least you're aware of the situation you're in. Realism ;)

I'm not the best person to talk about these things. I personally resented every measure I was put through in my 20s, and never found an 'expert' I felt was worth their paper. That's just me, and I know plenty of people who had very positive experiences finding help. So every situation is different, obviously. To be honest, it was something I needed to go through on my own. When you get to a point where you think that nobody else can fix it, then only you can fix it.

A year ago I ended up seeking a counsellor. I witnessed an horrific accident and it literally pulled the bottom out of my world. It's that feeling you get, like you've just been dropped from a very great height. Combined with having been overseas for a couple of years and trying to cope with a lot of really dark issues (mostly regarding the nature of in-humanity) - that just topped it off really. I had a mini wobble, very minor PTS. I ended up finding this back street counsellor (abortionist of thoughts) who had also been overseas and worked from his home. It was that archetypal comedy sketch where the professional sits there and nods whilst you talk and talk and talk.... and I completely talked myself out. I think that's all I needed to do. This warm glowy feeling eventually descended and I knew that it was time to go home. Very surreal experience.

I'm not sure whether it was me or him, but it was like nothing else I'd been through before. I think it was because I'd sought him, rather than being forced into a situation I didn't want to be in. Talking to people I didn't want to talk to. Also because this was an obstacle I was fascinated as a strong individual who knew myself very well by that point, not a young, vulnerable woman spiralling out of control. It was a very different experience.

Did depression make you question whether or not you wanted children, or did you always know you did? Sorry - I'm at that break point. Constantly questioning. I feel now, in a way that I didn't when I was younger. I can't see myself giving that up - but you're always aware of the time.

You know, they did a study in which they showed that the most vehemently homophobic men were also the ones most turned on by gay porn. I wonder if the theory works the same for those most mentalaphobic being the ones most in need of counselling? ;)

but only if you are willing to accept what happened and move on

Meh, don't get me started. It's so hard. When you're down there, you just can't think objectively - you really can't, it's like this maelstrom and you're caught in the middle. You can't get out. You're a vortex of self. Acceptance is something you only realise after the fact. Yet once you're out, you wonder how it ever happened.

Controversially, I'd say a lot of people get stuck in their own vortex because it creates an identity. And once you build your identity around it, you're stuck. It's just such a sad thing because we have such a very limited time to live. The amount we waste chasing phantoms is painful.

Exactly like your friend.

Don't know if you ever saw the South Park episode (think season nine) called Bloody Mary - about alcoholism? You can probably find it on allsp.com - it's just awesome. Even if you don't like SP, it's just something everybody should watch. All about alcoholism and how AA convinces you that you are powerless. That it's not your fault - it's a disease. There's nothing you can do about it. How the very thing that is supposed to remedy the problem, actually reinforces it. It's very well done. A clever social commentary on...well, most things, really.

There's an interest author called DBC (Dirty But Clean) Pierre. In one of his novels he writes:

We will be destroyed whether we like it or not.

I say let's like it!

Bring it.

fascinated = facing

I feel now = feel free now

This is knob-arse.

Oof! grunt! *drags blog back to original subject*

The best literary portrayal of insanity I've read is 'The repairer of reputations' by Robert W Chambers. The really effective thing about the story is that the reader doesn't find out that the character is insane until right at the very end, which gives you a genuinely scary emotional jolt cos you've been taking him seriously up until then, and have thereby been participating in his madness. It's so well done that it really gives you a feeling for what it's like to be out of your mind.

Without knowing what your book is about, it's hard to say whether to be explicit about the character's mental state, or to go for the slow reveal, or for the sudden shocking revelation. Also, I'd have to ask what exactly you mean by 'madness'. There are many kinds of insanity, not all of which are recognised clinically. No-one really agrees on what's sane and what isn't. Are religious fundamentalists insane?

I talk to e-gor, my computer, which is probly odd, but I'd only be insane if I thought he was talking to me, right? Also, I have a invisible pet sheep called Earwig, but surely there's nothing unusual about that?

...the reader doesn't find out that the character is insane until right at the very end, which gives you a genuinely scary emotional jolt cos you've been taking him seriously up until then

Heh, that's a bit weird....: "The story is set in New York City in the year 1920, 25 years in the future of the story's publication." and The Cabinet of Dr. Caligari was released in 1920. Spooky. Must have been something about that year ;)

And yes - the thing about 'define madness' is exactly what McKenna's Schizophrenic or Shamanic explores. There's a bit towards the beginning:

"I can remember an experience I had years ago, it was in the Tolman Library at the University of California, which is the psych library, and I was looking up some drug or something, and I just saw a book and I pulled it off the shelf, a book about schizophrenia. And it said, “the typical schizophrenic lives in a world of twilight imagining, marginal to his society, incapable of holding a regular job, these people live on the fringes, content to drift in their own self-created value systems.” [And I thought,] That’s it! That’s it! Now I understand!..."

Meaning 'that's me' ;)

Robert Wilson (author of the Illuminatus trilogy) said that the difference between a schizophrenic and a shaman is that the schizophrenic is drowning, whereas the shaman is diving.

By madness I mean insanity behavior that would put you in an asylum ...