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Tue, Feb 10 2009 09:13pm GMT 1
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	Writers sometimes self-publish, not because they aren't as good as traditionally published authors, but because self-publishing simply gives an author more control on what is published - without editors insisting on this or that; deleting this or that etc. etc. Sometimes, to an author, it doesn't matter if a book doesn't sell. It's about creating ideas that other people can read, no matter how humbly written. Real writers write for the love of their craft and not for money. Seeing one's ideas in print is not vanity but the end of a process. 'What I have written I have written!' Self-publshing gives a chance for a book to be read by others and even if only ONE person (other than friends and family reads it) then, for some writers - me included - that is the real buzz.
Wed, Feb 11 2009 10:58am GMT 2
Harry 315 Posts Sign Up Now!	I don't think any author really writes for money. The challenge with self-pub is to get into the hands of enough readers, as self-pub companies usually have very little to offer in terms of marketing. Then again commercial publishers are hardly wizards. Have you read Emma Martin's interview on the Interview pages of the Discussion boards? Worth a read - she shifted 1500 copies of her book in just a few weeks. In the interview, she reveals how ...
Wed, Feb 11 2009 04:10pm GMT 3
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	Thanks, Harry. Will check out Emma's interview
Wed, Feb 11 2009 04:32pm GMT 4
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	Thank's for the pointer, Harry. Remember me? It seems to me from Emma's interview that 'word of mouth' is a powerful tool in marketing self-published books. I have had articles in two small local papers on my first book, 'The Fantastic Journey' but circulation figures for both (one in Lincolnshire!) are small. Both have concentrated more on the 'why' about my writing rather than the 'what' as I suppose they were interested in the human side of the topic. Local bookshops have sold a dozen or so, but it is hard to get recognition or even moderate sales figures. Websites like yours and Authorsden, GoodReads etc hopefully will help (sold 2 books in the US recently - not much, but a start), but marketing professionally costs money! So, to return to Emma's interview - word of mouth is all-important, so, Harry, please, please mention my books (yes books - there are 4 now) to all and sundry! Finally, I sent Anne Widdecomb a copy of my first book 'The Fantastic Journey' for which I had a nice letter by return to say that she was looking forward to reading it over the Christmas recess, but no word yet. Also, I sent a copy to the Daily Express but, as expected, it was put on their overladen 'not for review' shelf but at least their Property Editor picked it up and passed it on to her nephew to read. Word of mouth by any means, eh? Thanks for all your advice last year - it didn't discourage me from writing; witness 300,000 words in 14 months. Whatever the outcome, I still love writing. Also, I'm told that The Self Publishing Magazine is going to review TFJ this spring. Thanks, Harry and spread the word!
Wed, Feb 11 2009 05:35pm GMT 5
Cadidore 13 Posts Sign Up Now!	Do you have any recommendations for self-publishing... reputable people... where to go etc. I'm going to give my book (third rewrite) one more round of the agents and if I don't get any takers this time round I'm seriously contemplating the self-publishing route. My friend had dealings with the Writers' Literary Agency who apparently have various other names. My friend sent them a letter of complaint as an email attachment and they thanked her for her manuscript! They had obviously not read the letter even though they enthused about her book, they advised her she would need her work editing (at great expense) before her manuscript would be ready to send out. There seems to be a lot of pitfalls. In your experience of self-publishing I wondered if you had any words of wisdom for the novices. Thank you Cadidore
Wed, Feb 11 2009 07:35pm GMT 6
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	From what I have heard, don't touch the Writers' Literary Agency with the proverbial barge pole. They seem to change their name along with their underwear! I believe they request a small payment ($100) up front and then bye, bye! For my first book, 'The Fantastic Journey', I used arimapublishing.co.uk and was reasonably satisfied with the result which you can check out via the link below. Their package cost £575 and I paid a further £293 for an artist-designed cover. Expensive? Not really when compared to some self-publishing companies e.g, The Book Guild, based in Brighton, accepted my first MS with glowing praise (beware!) but wanted nearly £9000 for a hardback production, but a point in their favour was that they had read it cover to cover. Since then, I have written and self-published 3 sequels (check out the 2nd link below) and chose to go with Lulu's Published By You service. They use the same printers as most of the other self-publishers and the quality is good. I chose a cover image from their own gallery, to save money. Lulu's PBY costs about £80 to purchase 10 ISBNs and provided the book meets online retail sites requirements, it will be up and running on 30+ online bookstores in 6-8 weeks. For further books, the additional online distribution costs £15 per book until the ISBNs run out (they are held for you by Lulu). Lulu is cheap and though they may not be the best, they provide the same service as any other self-publisher, i.e. getting your book onto sites like Amazon (all sites worldwide), Barnes and Noble, etc. etc. With my first publisher, arima, it took nearly 3 months to publication from original submission; with Lulu it took less than 2. One of the great advantages for me of Lulu is WYSIWYG. That is - if your file is in say MS WORD, then when Lulu upload it, it stays the same as long as it met their requirements w.r.t page size, margins, font etc. The resulting PDF they use for printing is a scaled down image of your source file. No merging of lines, paragraphs or pages. I find with traditionally published paperbacks, for example, that they squeeze the print into lines and pages. With Lulu, I worked in 14 pt type in WORD with 1.5 line spacing so that when it was reduced by Lulu it appeared as roughly 12 pt with 1.5 line spacing - much easier to read. Hope this makes sense - it has certainly been a journey, but in my humble opinion and within certain limitations, I would recommend Lulu everytime for value for money. Please don't hesitate to come back with more questions Martyn http://www.arimapublishing.co.uk/shop_uk/index.php?ipcat=fiction http://stores.lulu.com/store.php?fAcctID=2674295
Wed, Feb 11 2009 07:41pm GMT 7
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	Cadidore, PS: And no, I don't have shares in www.Lulu.com! Martyn Croft
Wed, Feb 11 2009 07:56pm GMT 8
Harry 315 Posts Sign Up Now!	Lulu is good, I agree - it does exactly what it says on the tin. Of the more full service self-publishers, then Matador is the one that garners only compliments from its clients and is the one we standardly recommend. (NB: we do have a faint financial relationship in that we send clients each others' way - but the arrangement only arose from mutual respect in the first place.) If you mention my name to Jeremy Thompson there (he's the MD) you'll get an extra-nice service. As for my friends at the WLA - please see my separate post in the Self-Pub Discussion board. The issues are too important to be buried away in an umpteenth posting ...
Wed, Feb 11 2009 08:03pm GMT 9
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	Harry, My point still stands: Matador is expensive (for me). I suspect, also, that you are duty bound to recommend them, but I hope your site doesn't take too biased a view of self-publishing companies. Please recommend others with whom you don't have a working (?) relationship, for the benefit of impartiality and spread. Otherwise, you may as well call the site Matador's Cloud! I suppose my reason for promotong Lulu is that for me they were just what I wanted and that may be true for many of your site's members, too. As you say, your arrangement with Matador grew out of mutual respect, but let's hope it's not only a case of, 'you scratch my ....' Best, Martyn
Thu, Feb 12 2009 01:44pm GMT 10
Cadidore 13 Posts Sign Up Now!	A big thank you to Felixstowe9 for your invaluable, impartial information. It was kind of you to share your experience for the benefit of others. It will be a great help for me in the coming months. Kind regards Cadidore
Thu, Feb 12 2009 05:13pm GMT 11
The WordCloud 205 Posts Sign Up Now!	We do recommend Lulu. As I say, for full service self-pub, then Matador is best. For POD, then Lulu is. For super cheap & cheerful options - well, just browse the net.
Mon, Feb 16 2009 04:07pm GMT 12
Bren 372 Posts Sign Up Now!	Thanks to everyone - all the coments have been really helpful and I feel encouraged to try more. Particularly great to be in contact with people who actually talk about the content on the packet! Thanks Harry brilliant idea - hope you do manage to get financial reward from the site. Brenda
Sat, Feb 28 2009 11:26am GMT 13
EmmaD 1801 Posts Sign Up Now!	I know lots of people who've used LuLu, and it does just what it says on the tin, so as long as you can read tins, you're fine. I even know people who, when they're at that stage of writing a novel when they can't see the wood for the trees, LuLu their MS purely so that, in reading it 'like a real book' they can see it afresh and critically, as if written by someone else. Also useful for writers circles, if no one minds spending the money. Loose pages of MS are such a pain to read. It has to be said, though, that PoD books still don't look quite like 'real' books, even if you're a whizz at page design and proofreading and copyediting and everything else. If I were using full-service self-publishing firm, like Matador or others, I'd certainly be asking what process they'd be using to produce my book. Emma
Sat, Feb 28 2009 11:50am GMT 14
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	Many Lulu-produced books do look as good as 'real' books as Lulu use the same printers as most POD publishers, and I'm curious as to what you mean by 'real', Emma. Do you mean that POD books are imaginary or not books at all?
Sat, Feb 28 2009 12:07pm GMT 15
EmmaD 1801 Posts Sign Up Now!	Lulu books don't look any different from other PoDs that I've seen, and there's no denying they're getting ever closer to the conventionally-produced sort. But I meant books printed by traditional processes, as mainstream publishers use, or anyone uses when the print run is large enough to make it more economic, and if they know how to brief the printer properly. I recently bought a copy of a Virago Modern Classic which is print-on-demand, and it was definitely a different beast from the other, conventionally printed Viragos on my shelves. This is an interesting blog for anyone who's thinking of self-publishing, by Jane Smith who runs How Publishing Really Works: http://theselfpublishingreview.blogspot.com/ As she puts it, "You send me a copy of your self-published book, and I'll read it. If I like it I'll review it here, and will be generous with my praise. "What's the catch? I'm an editor, and expect books to be polished. I'm going to count all the errors I find in spelling, punctuation and grammar and when I reach fifteen I'm going to stop reading. I'll work my way through up to five pages of boring prose or bad writing before I give up. And I'll list on this blog every single book I'm sent, including the books I've not completed, along with how far I got through each one." She also talks about the physical book, which is quite revealing, and might help people wondering whether to go down this route. How Publishing Really Works also has a lot on self publishing, vanity publishing and so on. http://howpublishingreallyworks.blogspot.com/
Wed, Mar 4 2009 09:30am GMT 16
Matador 3 Posts Sign Up Now!	Hi Martyn, and Emma (I know you of course!), Been following the discussions on choosing a self-publisher with interest, especially as some of the discussions involve my company, Matador. So far I don't disagree with anything that anyone's said, though I would like to make a few points in response... First Martyn, you say that Matador is more expensive compared to other companies that you've chosen? I'd certainly dispute that... we offer POD if that's what an author wants, but we don't recommend it if you want to get books out into shops as the unit cost is always too high. The sort of costs that you mention earlier in this posting for Arima are comparable to what we would charge for a POD book, apart from the bespoke cover design which is less than half that cost with Matador. We don't offer packages to authors as we don't believe it's the best way to offer the best value. Packages always include things that you either don't need or don't want, but you pay for them anyway. We always look at a manuscript first and then quote in writing based on that manuscript, so you know exactly what the costs are. And we do read all manuscripts that we take on, and regularly turn down manuscripts that we don't think are ready for publication (to put it politely). Perhaps when you have another manuscript ready for publication you'll consider us for a quote? Emma is right about the quality issue with POD books. However, digital printing does not necessarily mean poor quality nowadays. We use several different printers for different types and quantities of books that are to be printed, and only use those where we know that we can get first class quality. A short run of 100 copies would be placed with one printer, a longer run of 1000 with another. Emma is right, though; whatever you do, and whoever prints your books, quality counts if you are serious about the retail trade. We know, we hear it from them on a daily basis! However, I bet I could show you a digitally printed book that in terms of quality of print, binding and materials is indistinguishable from a litho printed book... Martyn, you are also right in hoping that The Writers' Workshop doesn't "have to" recommend Matador. I believe that authors should have a choice of supplier... what is right for one is not necessarily right for another, and most suppliers do things differently. In our own promotional materials for Matador we recommend that authors look at what else is on offer out there before committing to any one supplier. I would hope, of course, that having looked people would decide to publish with Matador, but I'd rather publish good books by people who have done some research about what they are getting into. At Matador we used to offer critical assessments to authors pre-publication, and good assessments they were though I say it myself. But the old vanity trap of praising a manuscript so that the author will publish with you is one that we felt we wanted not to be seen to possibly be doing, so we stopped offering critical assessments. We now recommend TWW to authors who want a critical assessment, not for a financial reward or any sort of kick-back, but because we know they produce good results (for mainstream and self-published authors).
Wed, Mar 4 2009 11:26am GMT 17
Cadidore 13 Posts Sign Up Now!	Hello again I'd like to write in response to Emma and Matador Emma You say... Lulu books don't look any different from other PoDs that I've seen... I held a Lulu book in my hand last week and I didn't like what I held or saw. From your comment does that mean all POD's have the same look and feel? However, Matador says there is a difference in quality. Is there any outlet for Matador books where I could go and actually view one? The Author House have a place in Waterstones and also in Borders but I've not yet managed to get to one yet to have a look. Does anyone know if the quality of their books are, as Emma says, no different to Lulu's? I would agree with your recommendation of using The Writer's Workshop to have a critical assessment of any manuscript. I had my first and second drafts read and the comments I recieved were invaluable. The assessment enabled me to re-write the whole book again in the light of the advice I was given. I appreciate this discussion and everyone's comments. It will hopefully enable me to make choices and get my book into print. I was going to send it around to the agents again but I've decided definitely to get it printed myself. I'm awaiting a quote at the moment from a local printer's who've printed several books. I was able to speak to someone who showed me their books and I was very impressed with the quality... hope the price is going to be within my budget! Has anyone else out there had a book printed by anyone other than the major POD's? Thank you Cadidore PS... A thank you to Emma, I found the sites you recommended to view very interesting.
Sun, Mar 15 2009 10:17am GMT 18
mike 631 Posts Sign Up Now!	I did put an opinion on self publishing on another post. It is in pesky prologues - though I put it there to see if the site is secure. I posted the prologue in 'pesky prologues' with comic intent, but one point is made - about those people 'provincially known as book reviewers' If you self publish a book it will not be reviewed. In the nineteenth century there was an occupation called 'tuft hunting' and another one called 'puffing' but this is how England has always worked. The 'internet' is an option I have only recently used. I now have a 'hidden' but very extensive 'web' presence. I do get 'hits' but these are for non-fiction pieces which people access, presumably, for the for information. I have been the 'top' web page on 'Google' for some things. But the material will be taken by other sites. For example, I put a query about a street called 'North Bank' on 'Word Cloud' . I have written an essay on 'North Bank'. If I put this article on the 'Internet' it would be accessed by anybody interested in George Elliot. But i should really get the essay checked first. About self-publication, You can do it completely yourself. There are courses in bookbinding but I cannot really recommend this. It is a nice hobby but only for re-binding and covering books, I can only staple about 60 pages together - no more. I came across Anthony Rowe - a printer - and you pay only for the manufacturing process. My brother is a software engineer and were I to take that route, he would set everything up for me and send A PDF file, almost, I believe, straight to the printer. I do not know though. I was going to do this for a book of children's poetry, as i only wanted at the most, 100 copies, to give to the people who remembered the poet. The poetry had been published but only in an educational magazine for teachers, so i had to write for publishing permission. Now, if anybody wants her poetry they can, in theory, download it from the 'Internet' Someone locally produced a self published book about her experiences as an orchestral player and did go into several editions. But she had previously had novels published by an orthodox publisher and probably had a market in other orchestral players. I only ever sent one article to a newspaper and this concerned a proposed redevelopment of 'Crystal Place' The paper decided to publish it. And, to my shock, they spread my article over three issues of the paper. This was a three week period and they gave the article a full page each week. This was the major 'South London News Paper' So it is possible to use local newspapers for publicity. Nobody followed it up and there was little I could do which was a shame as there was an obvious film plot in what i had sent I think self-publishing is more suitable for non-fiction than fiction. where there is a minority interest in what you write about. Mike
Fri, Apr 10 2009 04:44pm IST 19
Writerguy 20 Posts Sign Up Now!	Hi Cadidore, I self published my book for POD last year. Obviously everyone has different experiences, but I would caution you on this route. Very few people ever manage to sell there work this way. Unless you know a lot of people you can sell to personally then the liklihood is very slim. Also bookshops both major and otherwise won't deal with them because there is no distribution and the unit cost is far too high. They just aren't interested in any kind of promo stuff either (I had posters made and alsorts of stuff and it was never put up) Now I'm talking about POD and if you have copies made and printed then that's different. But even then the quality will simply not be as high as a professionally made book. If you only want to see yourself in print this is fine, but if you want to sell your work ...(and we must want to do that otherwise we could simply leave our manuscripts under the bed, happy when we've finsihed them to move on). All of these companies will tell you that many famous 19th century authors self published etc, but we don't live in the 19th century. They will sell you the idea that your voice is in print and it's great, but if you want to really sell your work, keep practicing get it noticed. Sorry if I sound cynical but I've defiantely learned the hard way on this, and I have many other tales of agents and all kinds of stuff...perhaps for another time. best of luck Guy
Fri, Apr 10 2009 05:42pm IST 20
Barb 129 Posts Sign Up Now!	A good blog on self-publishing here: http://accrispin.blogspot.com/2009/04/victoria-strauss-stupid-articles-on.html
Fri, Apr 10 2009 05:55pm IST 21
Martyn 33 Posts Sign Up Now!	If we self-published authors 'left our manuscripts under the bed' then who would be able to read them? No one who self-publishes has any intention or hope of making a dime. It is merely a way of enabling creative works to be available for anyone to read them, no matter how few. I always get a buzz when I find that one of my books has been read by just one person.
Wed, Apr 28 2010 07:57am IST 22
mike 631 Posts Sign Up Now!	The Hogarth Presss. Was this self publishing? The Woolfs used a printing press. But they published books written by friends an colleagues within a particular social network and from the same educational and social background. Walt Whitman got one good personal review from Emerson which to the annoyance of Emerson, he used to promote his book but he too, worked within a newspaper and literary network. Things seem to have reverted to the conditions that operated in the nineteenth century, in the abandonment of copyright etc and the obligations that have developed since that time. I read a biography of William Harrison Ainsworth last year, I thought i would like to read one of his books. Through POD they are all now available. (One of the books having something like a dozen publishers.) Once Google has scanned the book, it is available for anybody to sell. It costs these companies nothing to do this. They are not companies as we know them and they produce , in effect, pirated copies.
Thu, May 6 2010 11:01am IST 23
SM Worsey 617 Posts Sign Up Now!	Re. "The Hogarth Presss. Was this self publishing?" Surely this was pure self publishing, rather than vanity publishing?
Thu, Aug 26 2010 06:20pm IST 24
Ron Blanco 206 Posts Sign Up Now!	Martyn "No one who self-publishes has any intention or hope of making a dime." Erm, there is one! Why so pessimistic Martyn?