The Word Cloud

Ely, you may have made your decision already, but you've started a really interesting debate I've only just seen.

Ely, you may have made your decision already, but you've started a really interesting debate I've only just seen.

(both of us wrote that, I guess)

I hope I avoid the turmoil that Elysia is going through, but I do understand what she's trying to achieve. I've been there with my first novel. That MS is tucked away for now, because I ran into a wall; after 4 years and almost 50 edits I decided to put distance between us. I will go back to it, but it will be to pull it apart and reconstruct it as two or even three shorter novels.

I cannot accept second best. Every word, every punctuation mark has to be just so. If I am 99% satisfied with a sentence, I will not leave it. Others think this approach is wrong, or not for them, as they strive for their bucketloads of good to mediocre. Well, everyone to their own ways of working. I hope they are succesful.

What I do believe is that the brain needs to be exercised and pushed hard; churning out millions of average words won't do it. I am so glad I have done all that work on my first - none of it was wasted effort. It was rigorous mental exercise that has prepared me to do better. And I believe I have.

But I would say to Elysia that she needs to be kinder to herself. After all, turmoil is stressful. Ha - perhaps she is one of those who thrives on pressure, even if it is self-inflicted. I don't know, but good luck.

I cannot accept second best. Every word, every punctuation mark has to be just so. If I am 99% satisfied with a sentence, I will not leave it. Others think this approach is wrong, or not for them, as they strive for their bucketloads of good to mediocre. Well, everyone to their own ways of working. I hope they are succesful.

It's successful...

Not logical to assume that even if you're satisfied it's not a given that your work is any more good to mediocre than others who do not follow that mantra...

I resolve my 'trying to improve' by writing, not editing ad infinitum. But each to their own, I guess. No offence meant.

Haha - the joke's on me. I wasn't successful at all. A slap on the wrist for my typo.
No, I meant that I had done better (or perhaps I think I have done better) with my second attempt through following that mantra.

I have to agree that a certain amount of self-editing and review is beneficial. No argument there. What is less clear to me, is that each one of us can ultimately bring about 'perfection'.

There has to be a point when enough is enough. And let others decide whether it's worth while persevering. In some cases, it will be - but I think that the external input is essential to provide that momentum and guidance.

What I can't understand is why writers just carry on endlessly revising without that input...

I think you have to separate out two questions, though: revising is partly about making THIS piece better, but it's also about learning to be a better writer.

Every time you spot a word or phrase or sentence or paragraph or chapter which could be better, and don't just move on, but set about trying to work out why and how, you're becoming a better reader-writer. It's the equivalent of the fact that every time you run for a bus you're not only hopefully not being late for this particular party, but also giving your cardiovascular system and bone density a bit of a workout for the future. You might miss the bus but it's still worth doing for the second reason. It's not just that most of writing is in the re-writing, it's also that most of learning is.

But there is always a limit on that, in the sense that there are things you need to learn, which this project doesn't involve. However often you run for the bus you won't get better at climbing trees, although the cardio fitness will help in a general way. And for many writers it's much easier to go on fiddling and picking at it - and perhaps genuinely making little bits of better in lots of little places - than to stand back, think structurally, confront the big architecture... which may well include getting someone else's view of it. Having said that, I see just as many writers stopping too soon, as going on too long. Probably more, actually.

So I agree that there comes a time when it's more sense to stop, at least for long enough to find out how it reads to someone else. But I also think that that someone shouldn't have the last word, however many iterations of feedback you do. And there's no point in having some kind of editing going on if you don't take those suggestions and make them your own - the book's own. You're not learning anything if you just do the equivalent of copying out the sum again, with the right numbers plopped in; you have to go back to the beginning and understand why the corrections are correct.

Yes, I'm probably one of those writers who stop too soon, because I have the common sense to realise that I need outside guidance to move me from a C into a B. Yes I can attain C + but that's it.

But Stephen, in the end you have to trust yourself and your own judgement, else how do you develop? You can't totally rely on any outside guidance, even though it might be the best money can buy, like WW (haha). In the end it's You. You have to work through the grades.

But I do agree no one can work in complete isolation. If I was of that mind I wouldn't be on the Cloud.
This came about because of Elysia seemingly doing herself GMH. I hope these viewpoints have cheered her up.

Totally agree with you, Alanboy - and on that journey to trusting yourself, you're bound to find a few bumps in the road. This was a bump. I have now traversed it (successfully? I'll find out when I've finished!). I now have the confidence to stick another two fingers up at the Rules Mafia and do what I want, as well as knowing that cutting out and re-writing 4 of my chapters is the right thing to do. I'm learning to trust my gut, y'see. And I feel better for it. Yay for the Cloud!

The thing is, of course people need a certain amount of feedback, but there comes a point when feedback is just so many different opinions. I have no argument that other people are a valuable resource; I choose to post my stuff in groups (which is why you probably don't think I share anything - I do, just not on the general forum very often), and so far, in terms of feedback, it's been very helpful. But when it comes to working on whole novels, unless someone is willing to sit there are read the whole damn thing, you HAVE to learn to listen to yourself. And learning to listen and trust yourself is just that - learning. And, in the process of learning, you are going to hit snags. A snag was hit, so I posted here. And Lo! The snag has now been unpicked.

The thing is, 100 people can read and review your writing, and you'll get 100 different responses... how helpful is that really? Sure, if most of them pick up on the same thing, or confirm a niggle you've been having, then fine... but what about those who just don't know / like / understand your genre and want to make it sound like something they'd like to read, as opposed to what fits in with that genre / audience expectations? I spend more time sifting though advice, having to decide what I think is good advice and what I think is poor advice and acting on that - and the simple truth is in order to do that, you have to learn to trust yourself. Otherwise you're going to end up writing by committee, and that's never a good thing.