Discipline in schools
Sorry for, yet again, going on about teaching but the blood is
boiling this morning. It seems the media are, again, taking
pleasure in another spot of the sport known as 'teacher-bashing'.
This time, they are proclaiming to the world that schools are
lacking discipline. Michael Gove says so, so it must be
true.
I wonder sometimes if I'm living in an alternative universe to the media. I have been a teacher for 11 years. I trained in Glasgow in four different schools covering the full range of very very deprived to really-quite-well-off. I then worked in rural Cambridgeshire (mixed backgrounds) for a few years before spending a year supply teaching in dozens of schools in a deprived area of County Durham. I now teach in another rural school in North Derbyshire (mixed backgrounds). So I feel that, in my 11 years, I have worked at a wide range of schools in different areas of the country and with a wide range of children. In that time, I could pick out 2 schools, out of dozens, that could have improved their discipline - though the discipline wasn't lacking, it was just inconsistent.
The children that come into my class sometimes lack manners, sometimes are rude, sometimes cause trouble, sometimes bully, sometimes lack respect for their elders...but they learn very quickly what is acceptable and unacceptable inside the walls of my classroom, and also within the boundaries of the school. What is interesting is observing the moment they are handed back to their parents at the end of the day. I have seen and heard some very interesting behaviour and have often stepped in to intervene when the parent in charge has turned a blind eye. And this is the crux of the matter. It doesn't matter how hard schools work on discipline - if the same standards are not set at home, it will always be a losing battle in the long term.
But, I am open to disagreement. Maybe I've just been lucky to work in schools with strong leadership and clear behaviour expectations. Maybe the vast majority of schools out there do lack discipline. But what I'm asking for is evidence, not hearsay from the media who are quoting an education minister who, quite frankly, hasn't the faintest idea of what teachers do every day in school.
So, in the interests of lowering my blood pressure a little, I thought I'd ask for some Cloud wisdom on this one - seeing as there are quite a range of people on here from all kinds of backgrounds.
Do the vast majority of you agree with the papers on this one? Do you believe that schools lack discipline? Have any of you spent time in schools recently and, if so, what have you observed? Good discipline, a lack of discipline?
Back to school next week - thinking of inviting Michael Gove to shadow me for a week....;-P
I wonder sometimes if I'm living in an alternative universe to the media. I have been a teacher for 11 years. I trained in Glasgow in four different schools covering the full range of very very deprived to really-quite-well-off. I then worked in rural Cambridgeshire (mixed backgrounds) for a few years before spending a year supply teaching in dozens of schools in a deprived area of County Durham. I now teach in another rural school in North Derbyshire (mixed backgrounds). So I feel that, in my 11 years, I have worked at a wide range of schools in different areas of the country and with a wide range of children. In that time, I could pick out 2 schools, out of dozens, that could have improved their discipline - though the discipline wasn't lacking, it was just inconsistent.
The children that come into my class sometimes lack manners, sometimes are rude, sometimes cause trouble, sometimes bully, sometimes lack respect for their elders...but they learn very quickly what is acceptable and unacceptable inside the walls of my classroom, and also within the boundaries of the school. What is interesting is observing the moment they are handed back to their parents at the end of the day. I have seen and heard some very interesting behaviour and have often stepped in to intervene when the parent in charge has turned a blind eye. And this is the crux of the matter. It doesn't matter how hard schools work on discipline - if the same standards are not set at home, it will always be a losing battle in the long term.
But, I am open to disagreement. Maybe I've just been lucky to work in schools with strong leadership and clear behaviour expectations. Maybe the vast majority of schools out there do lack discipline. But what I'm asking for is evidence, not hearsay from the media who are quoting an education minister who, quite frankly, hasn't the faintest idea of what teachers do every day in school.
So, in the interests of lowering my blood pressure a little, I thought I'd ask for some Cloud wisdom on this one - seeing as there are quite a range of people on here from all kinds of backgrounds.
Do the vast majority of you agree with the papers on this one? Do you believe that schools lack discipline? Have any of you spent time in schools recently and, if so, what have you observed? Good discipline, a lack of discipline?
Back to school next week - thinking of inviting Michael Gove to shadow me for a week....;-P
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19 Comments
School does have a part to play in discipline - as you say, within the school walls, but if its not there in the first place where do you start? Teachers are not pseudo parents and shouldn't be treated as such by people who quite frankly, don't give a damn about their kids.
As it happens, my school isn't brilliant on the discipline front. I work in a secondary school, and the area in which it operates is considered to be an area of deprivation (although we get kids from all backgrounds attending). Saying that, I would guess 85% of the kids are absolute angels (if a bit cheeky on occasion), a further 10% are wannabes and are easily 'squashable' and the remaining 5% are the hardcore nutcases that are present in every school. It's this 5% that we don't deal with very well, but there is a reason for this - most of the hardcore 5% have appalling home lives, and whilst this is not an excuse, it is a reason, and it makes dealing with them quite fraught (usually social workers are involved). I see a distinct connection between dysfunction within families and poor behaviour at school, and I feel I should mention that a lot of our repeat offenders also have criminal records, which means this poor behaviour permeates every single aspect of their lives, NOT just in school.
The thing that gets my goat is that the vast majority of kids - those who quietly get on with their schooling with little to no problem, only ever being told off in class for chatting or forgetting a piece of homework now and again - are conveniently forgotten when things like this are reported. My other issue is with things like the E-Bacc, and how the government and press go on and on about how kids are taking 'soft subjects' nowadays... uh, do you want to know why?! How about that these 'soft options' were dreamt up by the government and sold to us as a good way of gaining extra qualifications to boost the league tables? And that schools are terrified of slipping down the league tables, and so end up having no choice but to do all the things we are told off for doing: teaching to the test (we daren't let them fail!); letting them take 'easier' subjects (both the pupils and teachers fear failure (due to league table pressure) so much that a guaranteed 'C' in a softer subject is much better than a 'D' in a harder one); repeated attempts at coursework (did you read about that father who is trying to sue his son's school because they let him submit sub-par coursework? Add this to the all-encompassing League Table Pressure, and is it any wonder that we let kids have a second chance?!)... I could go on, but I think you get the picture. Most teachers on the front line - those dealing with this on a day to day basis - are the loudest when it comes to lamenting the lack of personal responsibility some pupils display towards their learning, but given the hoops we have to jump through, what choices do we have? We're damned if we do and damned if we don't!
I also think that the majority of kids are decent, law-abiding and well brought-up. The view is skewed by the mouthy ones who find their way into the papers, along with their gobby parents.
I'm sorry you feel so beleaguered - be very nice if teachers were thrown a few bouquets in amongst the brickbats.
Deep breaths, m'dear, deep breaths. Then invite Michael Gove. He can only say 'no'!
Ely - yes, I wonder if he had some dodgy teachers when he was a kid and this is his revenge? And the 5% will always be the ones making the headlines unfortunately. I don't envy you teaching secondary as our 5% are much easier to deal with at primary school. And to the rest - agree, agree, agree.
CW - thanks, feeling calmer now. Yes, teachers do feel hamstrung to a certain extent but, in my experience, we've just got on with it and been lucky enough to have good headteachers who have backed us all the way when the parents kick off. But that's at primary level - can't comment on whether you get the same support at secondary. And yes, of course most of the kids are great. Just as most of the teachers are too! Off to write my letter of invitation ;-)
Those bloody league tables! I could probably go on for several paragraphs and bore the pants off everybody, but let's just say that they must be the worst thing to have happened to education in this country in my lifetime.
Weens, I know that there are many parents out there who still do that or similar. Only today, I was approached by two lovely children in the park (aged about 9/10) who said "excuse me" and then "please may we stroke you dog". Lovely manners. It's just that there are some parents out there who want to be their children's best friend and think that manners are old-fashioned.
But going back to the point of the blog - apart from Ely's experience, is there anyone else out there who has experienced lack of discipline in schools or is the media just stirring again?
It's about time they realised teachers are there to educate our children for their future, not to teach them how to behave, that's what their family should be doing. It's about time teachers were able to go to work and concentrate purely on doing this.
This is *very* true, Skylark. The amount of times I have parents of nice kids saying 'well, I wish she'd behave the way she does with you at home!'. And then there are the times when I see kids I teach misbehaving on the streets - indulging in graffiti, being rude to random passers-by, drinking etc - they often try to hide themselves behind their mates, or if their mates start mouthing off to me, tell them to 'shut up, all right? That's my teacher, and I've got to see her on Monday...'. Half the time they are more worried about what I think about them than their parents (or so it seems!!).
I've found it quite sad, but also in an odd way encouraging, how easy it can be to dissolve the difficult kids to tears. No shouting, no ultimatums, no threats - just by talking to them individually and letting them know how disappointed you are with their behaviour is often enough. Why is this encouraging? Because it means, once you get past the 'hard nut' exterior, these kids do care. I often come away from parents' evening feeling quite depressed, because there is always at least one parent who just sits there and swears at their daughter, telling her she's useless and rubbish... and then there are the parents who just don't bother turning up, and even if you ring them, they say quite blatantly that they aren't interested. I even had one kid's mum pretend I had the wrong number - silly bint; I'd spoken to her enough in the past to know her voice (being Scottish down here kind of sticks out a bit!!), and so I knew she was lying. I also double checked the number with her daughter (a pupil who I actually really like, but can be a real handful when she wants to be) and it was right. Okay, so maybe she's had a lot of phone calls about her kid... but sticking your head in the sand is not the way to deal with it! She even threatened to put her into foster care (which happens quite a lot - mum can't cope, so the kids go into care)... I mean, what kind of message is that giving to these children?
Good behaviour is the responsibiltyof parents ... always ... but street behaviour has been mentioned here too and it's a pity our Police Service has shed all responsibility for keeping children in line when out with their peer groups.
The vast majority do value teachers highly and the rants about lack of discipline in schools are directed at interfering politicians who tie your hands in so many ways and parents who let their children run wild. Your own rant is understandable. You have a difficult job to do and would do it much better in your own way if you had more backing from those holding the reins and the purse-strings.
We do love you all really :-)
I do think that discipline is ultimately about parents taking responsibility and providing a role model. But I also think that majoring on discipline in schools can have the opposite effect. I guess it's about balance – and ignoring political quick fixes.
I was still in secondary school (just) about ten years ago so have a fairly good recollection of it. It was a mixed comprehensive in inner-city London so it was possibly one of the more challenging teaching environments. It was a good school, very mixed in terms of ethnicity, culture, religion and socio-economic background which I think is a good thing for kids to be all together- learning from each other, clashing with each other (not physically, hopefully.)
There were, as you'd expect, quite bad disciplinary problems. Lots of fighting, swearing, drugs and alcohol- I think a lot of people from my parents' generation would be really shocked by how quickly today's kids are growing up. I think that there are loads of very good teachers, some not so good teachers and some who are possibly in the wrong profession. But no matter how good you are the pressure and expectation on the role of the teacher in society is too much. The amount of baggage that we all have from our lives is one thing, but the amount so many kids bring with them to school every day and how it informs their conduct cannot be the sole responsibility of the classroom teacher. Teachers get pressure from above (targets, paperwork, management, headteachers, politicians) and below (kids being scamps, parents sometimes siding with their misbehaving child) and its no wonder that teaching is one of the most stressful jobs. Hospitals, schools and other public services across the country are having to work beyond their remit to deal with the fallout of long-term social problems (particularly income inequality in my opinion but I don't want to get into another political debate) that cannot be solved with simple directives or newspaper campaigns.
For a nice example though of what great teachers can achieve: my grandpa taught most of his career in a poor area of Los Angeles called Watts (famed for rioting in the 60s when he was there) and the majority of his pupils gained high school diplomas and went on to college, many the first in their families to do so. My mum, not a career teacher but pianist among other things, decided to go help out in the learning development department of my old school and seven years later had set up a thriving creative writing department where kids from all backgrounds became passionate about writing and expressing themselves and were winning national writing competitions.
It must be really frustrating, Skylark, all this teacher-bashing but I bet the individual moments you have when you see the effect you have on a kid's life is worth all the abstract, hearsay crap from the gutter press, isn't it?
She has taught for over 25 years, and is known as the 'enforcer' in her school by the other staff. She has a way of looking at the children that makes them go silent. (It works on me too!) And I dare not mention Michael Gove if she is within earshot!
Well done to Mr Gove for winning a scholarship to a public school, but unfortunately, in terms of life experience, it meant he became detached from the vast majority of the population at the age of eleven. And, sadly, his privileged route through life is increasingly the template for a political career.
School can be pretty boring. Eleven years, every day the same, stuck in a class of thirty kids, sitting still, listening, trying to take it in. And yet after all this pain, some kids will seemingly have learnt nothing.
Here’s a radical idea. Why not reduce the hours of learning and make class sizes smaller? That way we shift the emphasis from quantity to quality. And the rest of the time, as john says, let children do stuff that is creative or fun. Children will learn more and become happier, healthier people.
Ama, thanks for the support :-)
John - that is so, so true. From some of the debate I've listened to, it seems that the people bemoaning the (alleged) lack of discipline are the ones crying out for the return of corporal punishment and other such draconian discipline methods. I say that I am managing quite well and have my children well under control without the need for those methods. Praising children who are doing what you ask of them and following the "Golden Rules" is far more effective on the children who are misbehaving than punishing those misbehaving. You say to a class "wasn't that kind of xx to do yy" and suddenly you have a whole class of children falling over themselves to do something kind so that they can be praised. Mind you, that's infants - keen to please! But yes, finding a balance between too soft and too strict and definitely ignoring anything that the politicians have to say - good plan.
Sisyphusa - Some really interesting points and yes, totally worth it. It's the reason that I've not yet walked away from the job. Those lightbulb moments when a child gets something for the first time or watching two children sort their differences out without adult intervention as a result of the work we do on personal/social education or even just as simple as the children that come bouncing into the classroom each morning with smiles that light up the room. I'm very privileged to be able to have these experiences and should stop moaning about the annoying politics stuff!
Mac - haha, I know that look! I've got quite an effective one too. Accidentally used it on hubby once...he wasn't too impressed ;-P
Ron - yes, very true though it doesn't necessarily follow that public-educated means out of touch. I went to a private high school along with my brother and sister in the days of assisted places and I have (I think) remained connected to my roots. Love your idea - smaller class sizes would have the biggest impact, quite definitely, and yes, giving children time to do other extra-curricular activities would produce children who are more rounded individuals rather than a bunch of clones who are capable of passing tests but little else. But that's another subject altogether!
Thanks everyone for commenting - some really interesting responses. Returning to the front line tomorrow....
The routine nature of state, secondary-school education seems to lead to children becoming a bit numbed by the whole experience. By having fewer lessons and smaller classes it would help children become more engaged with their lessons, and make it more likely they will get the personal attention they need. Do you think there is also scope for having some loosely-supervised play sessions at secondary school - an opportunity to play monopoly, read their book, build meccano, practice their instrument, etc - before they go home to shoot zombies on their computers?
But questioning whether you should force kids who have no interest in learning to stay in education until they are 18 is opening another can of worms...
Joanna - yes, yes, yes! Get kids out of education that don't want to be there and get them into apprenticeships to learn trades that will set them up with jobs for life. Not a can of worms at all but plain common sense! As for natural respect - yes, maybe, but I think I also learned classroom management techniques that support any natural 'command' that I may have and that's where this whole argument started really because Michael Gove likes to perpetuate the myth that any person can walk off the street and have no trouble managing a class full of children. I say it is a learned and practised skill - whatever your natural ability is - and the vast majority of teachers are skilled professionals who manage classrooms on a daily basis with a good balance of discipline, encouragement and inspiration.
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