The mechanics of writing.
Hay Cloudies,
So, I'm not sure if I've given you an update yet but I've dropped Psychology and am now studying single honours Creative Writing. That means I get to dabble in all areas of the art including Dramatic Writing - Yay! and Poetry - not so much Yay...
Regardless, I was in my Prose lecture the other day and the topic got me thinking pretty darn hard about writing. It was titled 'The Third Person POV' and was all about, as you can guess, the POV you write your stories in. The basics Mike, the lecturer, started off with where what we all, as writers, know quite well, the three POVs in our arsenal; 1st, 2nd and 3rd person.
He went on to say that 2nd person is very rarely used beause it's quite difficult to carry through a whole story. I've tried it before and gave up. Anyone else given it a go? 1st person was the most common POV used. Apparently 90% of the assignments handed in for workshops by 1st year students are in 1st person. But 3rd person is not used that often - more so than 2nd, clearly, but not nearly as much as 1st.
He went on to explain the mechanics of 3rd person. I'd never thought about any of this before and this is where the point of my blog lies so bear with me. Apparently, there are three ways of writing in 3rd person; Omniscient - Knowing everything about every character; Subjective/limited - Access to one characters thoughts only; and Mortal/objective/external - Fly-on-the-wall style.
After spending some time on this he went on to talk about another sub-level to 3rd person. Language, as in, Author's language, or Character's Language. Will you write a character's actions using your own voice, or will you write it using their voice? (i.e using teenager slang or scientist jargon).
So basically it goes like this, you choose 3rd person - then Subjective/limited - then Character language. And you stay consistent to that throughout.
After the lecture, I walked home with a friend and we got to talking about what Mike had said. I realised then what had been nagging at me througout the lecture. I NEVER consider ANY of this stuff before starting a story. I literally just open up a word document and write down what wants to come out.
My first novel was written entirely in 3rd person - not through choice, that was just how it came out. A couple months later I re-read it and changed the whole thing to 1st person.
My point is, does anyone here actually sit down and plan out how they're going to write their story? Granted, I'll make a very brief plan of how it'll start and roughly where it should end, but I don't think about POV or the language I'm using. Is this bad? Should I be thinking about this stuff before I write?
What do you guys do?
So, I'm not sure if I've given you an update yet but I've dropped Psychology and am now studying single honours Creative Writing. That means I get to dabble in all areas of the art including Dramatic Writing - Yay! and Poetry - not so much Yay...
Regardless, I was in my Prose lecture the other day and the topic got me thinking pretty darn hard about writing. It was titled 'The Third Person POV' and was all about, as you can guess, the POV you write your stories in. The basics Mike, the lecturer, started off with where what we all, as writers, know quite well, the three POVs in our arsenal; 1st, 2nd and 3rd person.
He went on to say that 2nd person is very rarely used beause it's quite difficult to carry through a whole story. I've tried it before and gave up. Anyone else given it a go? 1st person was the most common POV used. Apparently 90% of the assignments handed in for workshops by 1st year students are in 1st person. But 3rd person is not used that often - more so than 2nd, clearly, but not nearly as much as 1st.
He went on to explain the mechanics of 3rd person. I'd never thought about any of this before and this is where the point of my blog lies so bear with me. Apparently, there are three ways of writing in 3rd person; Omniscient - Knowing everything about every character; Subjective/limited - Access to one characters thoughts only; and Mortal/objective/external - Fly-on-the-wall style.
After spending some time on this he went on to talk about another sub-level to 3rd person. Language, as in, Author's language, or Character's Language. Will you write a character's actions using your own voice, or will you write it using their voice? (i.e using teenager slang or scientist jargon).
So basically it goes like this, you choose 3rd person - then Subjective/limited - then Character language. And you stay consistent to that throughout.
After the lecture, I walked home with a friend and we got to talking about what Mike had said. I realised then what had been nagging at me througout the lecture. I NEVER consider ANY of this stuff before starting a story. I literally just open up a word document and write down what wants to come out.
My first novel was written entirely in 3rd person - not through choice, that was just how it came out. A couple months later I re-read it and changed the whole thing to 1st person.
My point is, does anyone here actually sit down and plan out how they're going to write their story? Granted, I'll make a very brief plan of how it'll start and roughly where it should end, but I don't think about POV or the language I'm using. Is this bad? Should I be thinking about this stuff before I write?
What do you guys do?
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41 Comments
Im not sure I made much sense at all there, really...
Islander - I think I understand you. I know that you should be aware of your POV etc but do you consciously think of this before starting to write? POV, for me, is more of an after thought. Clearly it's important, yes, but I normally write how the story comes out. If it's 1st person, okay, if it's 3rd, alright. Whatever the story chooses.
Art - I was like that. As I said, my whole novel was limited 3rd. My switch to 1st was strange though. I was wary of using it at first but then afterwards I was surprised that I'd ever thought the story worked in 3rd. Did you consciously choose 3rd person?
To that end, I think POV has more to do with what suits you as a writer, and the kind of story you write. The way I like to put a story together just doesn't suit 1st person. I could probably write it that way, but I would have to compromise so much to do it, for me it doesnt make any sense. I'm pretty sure you could swap that around to the reverse for someone else.
Go with what's comfortable, I say. What you feel happiest writing in, is probably how you'll write best. you can walk further in a pair of comfortable shoes than you can if you just nail a couple of planks to your feet, as it were. Over-thinking can lead to damaged confidence.
http://tollesburytimeforever.blogspot.com/
If the story focuses on an event or a series of events involving many affected characters, 3rd person, subjective/limited narrative would seem to be the best way to tell the story.
As everyone says, it all depends on the story and what you are comfortable with. As to characters, in order to portray them most effectively, it does mean being inside their head to make sense of their behaviour and language portrayal. One tip I learnt to achieve this - say your M/C suffers some disaster in his/her life - what would be the first thing on his/her mind when he/she wakes up the following morning?
Best of luck with the course Jess
I think... it's important to get stuff down, very important. But a bit of foresight might not go astray.
For example, lets say you are using 1st person. If you attach yourself to a character who then dies half way through the story, you have a problem (this is an extreme example, but I'm sure you understand my point).
Similarly, for 3rd or 1st person, if you are attached to a cowardly character then not much will happen. if you attach yourself to an unobservant character, it can be harder to tell the story.
Finding a character who can carry a twenty page story is one thing, finding a character who can carry a two hundred page story is another. So it's not "planning" as such, more of an auditions process.
I recently started writing a new novel, and began it in limited third person. I worked out which of the characters would tell the story. But something seemed to be lacking. So as an experiment I began writing it in the first person (and the present tense) for each of those three characters. And as a result it's come to life. But my previous novel, which is in the third person (and the past tense) from the perspective of four very strong characters, would not have worked in the first person present because of its overall atmosphere.
However, saying that, I do tend to find that the story itself dictates how it is told - when I am thinking about it, I will naturally fall into either 3rd or 1st, and that's what I stick with. I also find that genre has an effect on what voice I use - horror, I find, lends itself to 1st person (mainly because I tend to write horror short stories and not novel size pieces), whilst fantasy to 3rd.
One thing I do struggle with in 3rd, though, is sticking to limited 3rd. A lot of fantasy (especially traditional fantasy) is written in omniscient 3rd, because fantasy tends to follow more than one character or groups of characters, but I have found that outside of the fantasy genre, this is pretty much frowned on - indeed, that was one of major critiques I received when I first joined here, and I will admit to it coming as a bit of a surprise, since no one had ever picked up on it before. Then I realised this is because I was being exclusively read and critiqued by fantasy writers / readers, and since omniscient 3rd is so common in fantasy, it's not questioned - it was only when people outside of my genre read it did it get flagged up. Due to the conventions of my genre, I still write from more than one 3rd person PoV, but keep each scene to limited PoV (even if there are 2 main characters in the scene - one will always take precedence over another). I have no idea if this is the 'right' thing to do, but it works for me... ;-)
Valkia - I think I lean towards your view quite strongly. I think it's a lot about writing preference but then, should it be? Should we stick to a preferred POV simply because we like it? Are we sacrificing part of the story because of that? A tough one to consider.
Stu - sounds about right. Seems like you've got an interesting book there too. I'll check out your link :) Best of luck with it.
Tenacity - I like that. I think the story does suggest it's own voice. That's why I've never consciously decided what POV I should write in until I'm doing it.
GD - I may have to give it a go, this planning, some time. In honesty, it would have saved me a lot of time re-working my first novel. However, I'd have missed out on the big edit I gave it too. Still, it's something I should consider.
ST/Babble - you've both got the same point there - it depends where the story will go. Maybe again this could link in to planning it beforehand, seeing where it'll lead. But then, writing is so subjective. We all know a plot can change 40 pages in. It's so difficult :)
Spangles - I did the same thing as you. I couldn't work out what was up with PT and then I switched it to Claudie's POV and now it just works. It's obviously an important factor to bear in mind.
AlanP - I found that when I switched to 1st person in PT I had to cut whole scenes where Claudie didn't appear and it sucker big time. It is a really hard limitation to deal with. If I'm honest, I cheat a wee bit. It's 95% 1st person, then I'll have one chapter that just lets the reader know where the antagonist is, for example, which is in 3rd person. Perhaps, like Ely says, that's breaking the rules, but that's how the story has to work...
Hey, rules are meant to be broken! ^^D
I was the same Noodle. That lecture really opened my eyes to how much depth there is to the writing process. I'd only ever looked at it from a reader's POV, as in analysing a book in English Lit classes. To look at writing from the writer's angle is new and exciting :) I'm looking forward to wherever else the course takes me!
However if you're intending to have any sort of hot sex scene in your book write it in 3rd. Ist person sex scenes come across as both pornographic and cringe worthy.
I used to be scared of writing sex scenes until I was challenged to write the filthiest thing I could stand - it was so liberating! Saying that, though, I don't think I would ever include anything like that in a novel I intended to send out - for me, these things are purely for the purposes of writing exercises and pushing myself out of my comfort zone. I have rarely read a truly integrated sex scene in a novel that has felt essential to the plot - most of the time (not all, but most) there has been a definite air of 'this could have had a curtain drawn over it'. It's a fine line to walk, though, especially if you're trying to portray a believable and relatable relationship into a story; whilst too much sex is off putting a lot of the time, too little sex is just as problematic. I remember reading a series of books where there was a 'will-they-won't-they' relationship that went on for about 6(!!) books, but when they *finally* got together,, it was given ha;f a paragraph and a rough allusion to waking up together. Now, I wasn't after a detailed blow-by-blow (if you will excuse the term...) account of what went on, but I expected more than that and felt completely cheated! Or maybe I am just a closet perv... XD
My first novel was written in 1st person and I did struggle when it came close to the end. I might re-write in 3rd person. Everything else I've written- all short stories has been in 3rd person that only follows the main character's thoughts. I personally don't like it when POV's switch from one person's head to another when reading a story so I don't use that technique when writing my own.
Good luck with your course, Jess- it sounds like it's going to be really interesting. Thanks for sharing what you learn too.
I used to dislike the first person - as a teenager I always preferred P.G. Wodehouse's Blanding Castles series to his Wooster books, but ended up loving the latter. I find writing in the first person gives me much more of a buzz and so I try to do so sparingly. I've only written two works in the first person - both of them critted on the Word Cloud, funnily enough. First person can be intoxicating because you are effectively assuming an identity rather than just telling a story.
Has anyone checked out the Wiki entry on the second person narrative? It's even more restrictive than first and third-person narratives, and as a result comparatively rare - the entry lists examples, including one fantasy novel: L.E. Modesitt's 'The Towers of the Sunset'.
I'm currently reading 'We need to talk about Kevin' and as far as I've got, it's a series of hefty letters written by the wife to her estranged (?) husband; and so is a mix of 1st person and 2nd person, like: 'I wanted to go to London, but you wanted to me to stay home. So you said xxx then I said yyy and you did zzz'.
Have to say that I find it a bit pretentious - a plot device to load backstory, as I can't imagine anyone actually writing a letter like that in such enormous detail to someone who'd been there at the time. Surely the husband would know what he'd said and what he hadn't? So it feels like a ploy to inform me, the reader, rather than the husband. It could be the wife's need to justify herself, but I'm struggling to care.
However, the book and the author have their merits, so I'm staying with it for now. But it does feel unnatural to me.
And they say, "You're what?"
And you reply, "Second Person, that's me." And you give them a smug grin like you've found a secret they never even guessed at.
And all that day and all that week you feel liberated and daring and new.
Then you get fed up.
And stop.
Any similarities to the character in this highly fictional scenario and the author are purely coincidental.
Very nice, Gerry and Aonghus :)
So there you are scratching your head and the scene doesn't mean anything to you. I mean, you see the guy and he's got hold of the back of the chair and his knuckles are all white. And you see the dame and she's chewing her knuckles. And you're thinking what is it with these people and their knuckles. Then suddenly wham...
And you wake up thinking you could have done this a lot easier using Third Person...
Like Whisks, I do have a strong dislike of 2nd person. Gerry's example says it all to me: it's a device beloved of American-Private-Eye-type pulp fiction. Very few do it well.
As for writing the narrative in the vernacular, that's something I really enjoy but was discouraged early by my tutor from doing so in any serious attempt at getting published. Either he had an aversion to it or I wasn't very good at it :-D
And yes, I too think rules are there to be broken if the quirky has more impact. I'm more concerned with captivating my reader than following an established formula.
An interesting blog Jess, giving much food for thought.
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