Three Dimensions Of Time

Published by: Gerry on 31st Aug 2010 | View all blogs by Gerry

Three Dimensions Of Time

This might be of interest to sci-fi and fantasy types.

Some of us have been discussing four dimensional space (Forum/Critiques/A Short Selective Journey Through Hell: Chapter 2) and the question of time has arisen. Is it a dimension like the others? I suspect not, because it doesn’t feel the same. So what sort of dimension it is?

Maybe it’s three.

1. The first dimension of time, I would suggest, is the normal straight-line time we usually experience: past-present-future. This is the equivalent of length.

2. The second dimension is more like a historian’s view, looking down, as it were, from above and seeing how widely separated events (say, in Tokyo and Aberystwyth) may occur at similar moments. This would be the equivalent of adding breadth.

3. When we add the third dimension (height) we make a time-world that can be moved around in. Just as we can go backwards, forwards, sideways, fast, slow or stop in our three spatial dimensions, so a Time-Lord (Hi there, Doctor!) can go any direction – or none – in his three dimensions of time.

4. I can’t picture a fourth dimension of time, though I can of space: “innerness”. However, I bear in mind Blake’s line: “to see a world in a grain of sand... And eternity in an hour.” So maybe that’s it. The secret, both of space and time, lies within – in which case, the fourth dimension of time may be eternity, which can be found inside outer time.

(Possibly a god’s eye view.) (Or even God’s eye view – but I wouldn’t like to presume too far in speculation.) (As Alexander Pope didn’t quite put it: “Presume not God to scan/ Shurrup Gerry, yer only a man!”)

Is all this old and familiar? After all, I presume Doctor Who ought to be based on some sort of theory. And Sci-Fi writers like going off in all sorts of strange directions. So, yeah, I’m probably just catching up on what everyone’s been talking about for ages. Have they?

Comments

24 Comments

  • AlanP
    by AlanP 1 year ago
    Where might a Dirac pulse fit in these definitions, I wonder.
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    Bloody hell, the one thing I was hoping nobody would mention! (What is it?)
  • maryluv
    by maryluv 1 year ago
    Does Dirac pulse apply to string theory? Or is it another physicist's lie?
  • AlanP
    by AlanP 1 year ago
    I read about the Dirac pulse in a science fiction story that I have completely forgotten, by an author I can't remember about 30 years ago. I think it was written in the fifties, a bit of a heyday for sci fi.

    Anyway, the Dirac pulse is a burst of electrical noise, lasting just a few milliseconds. When you slow it down it contains a record of everything that will be and everything that has ever been. At least that's how I remember it. Just off to Google to see if I can find out more.

    String theory could be applied to time travel if you accept that all sub atomic particles are indeed strings and that the universe is folded back on itself, so that, given the finite speed of light you could take the long way or the short way to reach the same point at different times, thereby seeing into the past, or the future - not sure which. Actually I think I just made that up. Writers? huh!
  • AlanP
    by AlanP 1 year ago
    I tink it might have been heinlein, but I can't find anything.
  • maryluv
    by maryluv 1 year ago
    -One night Dirac asked Heisenberg 'why do you dance?'
    Heisenberg answered, naturally enough, 'well, when there are nice girls around, then I feel like dancing with them. Dirac fell silent. It was only several days later, after giving the matter considerable thought, that he called Heisenberg on his cabin phone and asked his next question. 'How do you know beforehand that girls are nice?' -

    Extract from 'Atom' by Piers Bizony.

    Well, it made me laugh!
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    Alan: the Wiki article on Dirac pulse is hilarious. Endless name checks and squiggles - but not a hint of clarity. I like your explanation of the Dirac pulse a lot better. Sounds a bit like an audible version of fractals (little bits containing everything).

    Universe folding back on itself - great scope for fiction - warp drives, wormholes and suchlike. Also hints at dimensions folded in on themselves - grist to my particular mill (extracting a fourth spatial dimension out of the familiar three).
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    Maryluv: see? Heisenberg could time travel!
  • Gerilyn
    by Gerilyn 1 year ago
    You lost me at ''maybe it's three''- but still has been very entertaining.
  • AlanP
    by AlanP 1 year ago
    Heisenberg could time travel? Are you certain about that :-)
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    Dirac came out of the past and told me so himself!
  • spike1
    by spike1 1 year ago
    My WIP concerned the "other" dimensions of time.
    I did things differently using timeline theory as the basis.
    the way I thought of it was 1 dimension was the flow of time and the other two were like the twigs of a tree as time branches, meaning walking in the other two would mean walking to alternative histories, the further you walked, the further into the past the branch would've occurred and the more differences there would be.
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    spike1: am liking the sound of this. How did the other two dimensions differ from each other?
  • Wrathnar the Unreasonable
    What about timelike space? In mathematical physics, a closed timelike curve (CTC) is a worldline in a Lorentzian manifold, of a material particle in spacetime that is "closed," returning to its starting point. There are also globally hyperbolic spacetimes which are timelike.
  • spike1
    by spike1 1 year ago
    They didn't differ, time branched in 2 dimensions forming a 3 dimensional "tree" rather than a flat tree...

    Alas, I've not touched the WIP in quite a while, I'll write more when I get a round tuit.
    :)
  • Amarantha
    by Amarantha 1 year ago
    The dimensions of Time may be more to do with the angle from which it's experienced. As with the three dimensions of material objects perceived by the brain via the five physical senses, anything may appear one-dimensional when observed from only one angle.

    Scientists create instruments which allow us to view from angles not previously available naturally to the human eye. Spectrums; Fractels; how I love fractels! The dimensions of Time may be limitless to an observer within the dimension occupied by Time itself.
  • mike
    by mike 1 year ago
    Does the idea of a counter-factuals come into this? What ifs? The concept is more complex than you might think. I had the idea of Mary Shelley writing Dracula instead of writing Frankenstein but this would mean she had not written Frankenstein. One would have to go back in time to a point where she had not conceived the book and the subsequent history of Franknstein would then not exist. My idea makes no sense. She would have to write both books for the idea to work,which makes no sense either.
  • Autumn
    by Autumn 1 year ago
    Great thread!

    When you first mention the fourth dimension of time, I imagined innerness being your own personal concept of time. Something 'lasting' ages to one person, seeming like minutes to another having same experience. How long does it REALLY last?
    Prob oversimplifying it though.
    Lisa x
  • Ancient Woodland
    by Ancient Woodland 1 year ago
    It's familiar territory to me, Gerry. I was drunkenly discussing it with Whisks and Chanty at the festival earlier on in the year and discovered to my detriment that alcohol is not conducive to wrapping your head around more than four dimensions. These concepts are central to the under plot of several of my WIPs.
    The first dimension of time, our fourth dimension and the one that we can perceive because we're living it is the slice that is 'now'.
    The fifth rotates one through 90 degrees, gives us length in time and allows us to see that the fourth dimension is just a slice, seen head on, of a time line, like a length of sting that you have been experiencing from within as you traverse its length over the course of your life. The fifth dimension allows for movement forward and back along this 'string'.
    The sixth dimension or third dimension of time rotates us once more through 90 degrees and allows us to see depth, it is at this point that we can see that our string is intersected by other strings from above and below and that those strings affect the course of our lives.
    Rotating once more into the seventh dimension, gives us not just length and depth but width, the ability to see all the other strings around us and their interaction with one another, like being in the weave in a thick rug.
    This would imply an eighth dimension for, in order to understand what is happening in dimensions, you must observe from the dimension above. Like looking upon a 2D sketch on a piece of paper from the third dimensional perspective of height.
    And from Eight on it gets a little complicated ;c)
  • Wrathnar the Unreasonable
    Surely 'timelike' dimensions are potentially another interesting aspect of time itself. There's timelike space, and even timelike light. It's all about asymptotes (is there a 'p' in that? asymtotes?); if you have a graph of ,say, space against time, and a parabolic curve where the time quantity approaches (but never quite reaches) zero, then the time quantity becomes infinitesimal, yet the curve carries on to infinity, so the space quantity becomes timelike. As an example, consider an object falling into a black hole. Relativity tells us that time dilation becomes infinite at the event horizon, so time effectively freezes - yet the object still falls into the black hole. So the separation between being outside the event horizon, and being inside it, instead of being a matter of space (distance travelled across event horizon) and time (duration of travel), as time is frozen, it becomes a matter of space and timelike space.

    The fact that other things can be timelike raises a new perspective on time itself, don't you think?
  • Wrathnar the Unreasonable
    It's just occurred to me that 'Timelike light' would be a great title for something. I'll have to see what I can come up with while I'm driving my bus tonight.
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    Am loving the various ideas: fab thanks everyone!

    Autumn: Einstein would agree with you! “Put your hand on a hot stove for a minute," he said, "and it seems like an hour. Sit with a pretty girl for an hour, and it seems like a minute. THAT'S relativity.”

    Amarantha: your idea too sounds relativistic - all down to the observer - Einstein just popped down to tell me he's pleased!

    Wrathnar: am not too well up on Lorenzian manifolds (and refuse to joke about bus exhausts) but love the idea of timelike space. Timelike light - sounds great, but will await your inspiration.

    Mike: counter-factuals, ah yes, great for Back to the Future type stories (responsible adults always have to sweep up afterwards, though - and suppose they don't!)

    AW: love your eight dimensions. I've only managed seven (four of space and three of time) but I think in principle more are feasible, although, as you say, it may get a bit complex after eight.
  • Amarantha
    by Amarantha 1 year ago
    I'm glad Einstein is pleased, Gerry. I was talking to him only the other day and he's revised his ideas somewhat. While all things remain relative to the observer they are also affected by the observer.

    Watch out!
  • Gerry
    by Gerry 1 year ago
    Ah yes, that's the bit he struggled with!
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