To honour and NOT obey, my new resolution! Part 2
I am absolutely awe struck by the sensitive spot my blog, ‘To Honour and Obey? Bollocks!’, has rudely prodded. This has sooooo put my world in perspective. Here I was having an innocent bitch about my local conservatives, never imagining it still so rife even in modern 1st worlds.
Are women still fighting for freedom? Hasn’t that been won!!!!! by us bra burners?
It strikes me that they are still many woman out there that are not liberated and don’t mind the fact. My mum was, ironically enough, progressive in her thoughts, maybe I now take this for granted? But I can’t understand why this is still so steeped in controversy. To be honest I was prompted to write this misshapen blog by my driving frustrations and my need to commiserate with likeminded people. It seems this is truly not what developed.
My corner of the world seems to reside next door to everyone? I actually find that mortifying and totally backward.
Chapter 7 in Elizabeth Gilberts ‘Committed’ she quotes:
‘Of all the actions of man’s life, his marriage does least concern other people; yet of all the actions of our life, ’tis the most meddled with by other people.’ - John Seldon, 1689.
Obviously, this needs to be put in context of men and women, but maybe I should just accept we are all one melting pot of ideas and beliefs and just leave it at that.
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46 Comments
Families - especially extended nuclear families -provide the kind of support that is not provided by the Welfare State and some women seem to enjoy being the matriach of such arrangements. Washing machines etc have made family life easier for the woman - and Macdonalds! As someone who dies not have a family, I can see the advantages of one.
It has just occured to me that removing the question mark from the title of your first blog in this series you appear to be launching wouldn't change the sentiment much at all, which is a bit of a non sequeter on which to leave.
I wanted to challenge the idea, my apologies for the pointless punctuation.
I am not planning a series!!!!! But these are issues that my WIP deal with and it is interesting to get your input. I really appreciate everyone’s efforts.
RC - thankfully I don't need no push up bra!
That reminds me of something the headmistress of my girls' grammar school said, circa 1985, in assembly, on the subject of careers: "To be accepted as a equal to a man, you'll need to be twice as good. Fortunately, girls, this is not usually too difficult."
I am defiantly a bit of both worlds, I suppose that makes me extra demanding? I'll have to check with my husband, but I think I know the answer.
Did you say this is relevant to a book you are working on?
I have a serious comment relating to the possible shift in marital obedience through the ages. I understand that in 753 BC Romulus and Remus introduced laws that allowed the husband to physically discipline his wife under the Laws of Chastisement, and that this law lasted until 1829 (perhaps mike can confirm this). Could it be that during those years, when males could use physical superiority to maintain authority, women were reliant on skills such as guile, persuasion and deception to get what they wanted?
Now that the physical difference is negated by the law, I wonder if those skills mean that women now have the upper hand, and it is more often the case that men obey their women.
Any thoughts on that?
By the way, I can't be absolutely certain but I've not seen Mike joke before. Not sure I have now either ;-D
Proper order, too.
Irish Celts need greater attention as one of the best sources of indigenous British (= Druidic) culture!
Mac - I have a mop here you can use, only if you mop mine first!! teehee
Men seem to have a problem with gratitude, not women. Men expect thanks for everything: making a cup of tea, picking up the hoover etc. They treat it as a personal achievement and expect a certificate for it and to be forever repaid!
Women do these things automatically, because if we didn't, we would be forced to live in squaller!
I have never received thanks for anything that I did for my husband and never would either. I have to say though, i'm crap at DIY! I do need a man for that. :)
RB, that is a very pertinent point you raise, and I am very interested in this. Women are most definitely masters at manipulation and deception, and what I know for sure, is that this certainly hasn’t diminished over time. So it would seem you have turned the tables completely …
Oh, Mike, I do hope that was a joke!!!!!!! Sorry, but although there maybe some truth, isn’t that a horrifying notion.
Don’t worry, Gerry, there are some fantastic Brickies out there, but must make note that I don’t think they are here in SA. I could gladly take a mallet to my Brickies head.
Kiki, I refuse to learn how to use a drill, after all, I can’t emasculate by husband altogether. When I stop feeling the thanks I simultaneous stop doing the work. I grit my teeth and let it pile. Then eventually he notices and has to help clear the load.
If breasts weren't 'sexual', why would women push them up? Young women wear clothes that expose underwear and breasts. Is this to demonstrate feminism? Millions of young women do not have a clue what it is.
But, having been a fifties housewife who did say 'honour and obey', and was more than happy to follow the tradition, in a church, in a white dress, never expecting my loving partner would command me to do anything, but that we would be a partnership, it never did me nay harm.
However, society's expectations of me, did.
I think there are still a few areas where women are fighting for fairness, justifiably. But I have a suspicion, supported by some of the comments on here, that some women are taking things further and fighting for revenge. Hence the rise of men's rights movements. Personally, I think we should take a leaf out of the books of Tony and Autumn, whose comments show genuine respect, rather than rejoicing in cute comments that put down the opposite sex, tempting though that is.
Coming from a broken home, I vehemently oppose divorce, marriage is a serious institution that should taken seriously and honoured with only the most honest intentions (hence my irritation at the lack of understanding of marriage vows). This being said, we all have a contribution to make in this world, and being hopelessly unhappy will serve no assistance in achieving this.
Liberation to me means making commitment in freedom and choosing a path in life. Here, most people seem to be drifting.
There are a lot of teenage mums in our area, and I'm afraid that most of them, and the fathers (if they're around) leave the upbringing of the child to the grandparents. No choice seems to have been made, other than 'I want one of those' or 'I want sex now, but I forgot the condom' by either mother or father. And commitment of any sort, whether in freedom or otherwise seems to be redundant.
Moving on, there was a remark that a padded bra might be comparable to a jock strap. I feel bound to point out that a padded bra is designed to create an illusion around the definitely sexual female chest region. A jock strap, however, is designed to protect gentleman's bits from painful damage whilst running at speed and not to give an impression of greater size than is actually therein. Only those of us in possession of the articles in question can attest to the pain that can result from damage to them.
Just thought I would clarify that point, not that it has much to do with the sanctity of marriage. Except that the last time I received a decent whack in that region, MrsP found it rather amusing.
I don't want to succeed in a male dominated world. I don't want to put my children second for the sake of my career. I don't want to break through that glass ceiling. Yet I am expected - nay, forced, considering if I didn't work, we'd struggle horribly (and also considering my husband is an engineer who makes a tidy sum himself and we live modestly, should highlight just how dependent the markets are now on women working instead of looking after their children) - to constantly put my family second by my 'career'. And I know I am not the only one who feels this way - we were discussing it at work last term, and out of all the women with children under 10, not one of us said 'I'd hate to give up work'. Every single one of us said that we'd rather be at home with our little ones, and feel terrible guilt at not being able to fulfill our roles as mothers. I read these stories of women going back to work 3 weeks after giving birth, and I just want to weep for them - when all is said and done, you can't take it with you, and your kids are only young once. But then, that's their choice... or so they maintain.
Funnily enough, the most pressure and 'snobbery' I experience when I express any of these views comes from other women - and they are almost exclusively childless (and tend not to be married). Having kids is a personal choice, and I know it is not for everyone... but please, don't stick your nose up at me when you ask me what I do for a living and I say 'I work part time, because I have a little one - I'd rather be at home, but I can't afford it'. I am not betraying the sisterhood because I don't 'want it all' (wow, what a bunch of bullshit *that* was - have the career, have the husband, have the family... and also have all the extra stress that comes with it, because the fact that I have worked a full day too doesn't come into it when dinner needs cooking and the washing up needs to be done), and I'm certainly not some cowed housewife who doesn't do anything without her husband's say-so. In fact, I need to go and bash hubby around the head with a spatula in a mo - I cooked, therefore he washes up (not that he ever remembers this... and if my work friends are anything to go by, their husbands are just as bad!).
Do I consider myself a feminist? To a point, yes. Women should have the choice to live their lives the way they want to. Women should not be judged as inferior to anyone *whatever their choice*. And that's what I suppose this little ramble is about - the 'whatever their choice' bit. However, feminism is so often equated with hating men and wanting to belittle them at every turn, which I do not agree with at all. That's not equality - that's, as Ron mentioned, revenge - or worse, superiority. We have an entire generation of little boys growing up with no male role models in their lives, where 'male' traits are frowned upon in schools (taught almost entirely by women), where boys are becoming so disenfranchised because they are constantly being told they 'aren't as good as the girls', and I find that not only sad, but worrying. Our sons are growing up in a world where they are being told they are, for want of a better word, 'bad', and that their sisters are 'doin' it for themselves'... where girls are ambitious, boys are boorish; where girls are chasing the dream, boys are hogging the limelight; where girls are 'expressing themselves' when they go out in tiny clothes with their boobs hanging out, boys are 'lecherous perverts' for looking.
Maybe it is about time we stopped going on about the fifties (it was fifty years ago, after all...) and start looking at working together, rather than trying to 'out do' our male counterparts? How about acknowledging and embracing the differences that are inherent in our biologies rather than trying to deny them? Whether we like it or not, women have babies, and they can only have them in a relatively narrow window of opportunity. Due to the 'don't have kids, have a career' propaganda I was spun in my teens and twenties, I am left with such a tiny window it's not even funny - I had my daughter at 31, and now want another sibling for her before I am 35. Why 35? Because rates of genetic illnesses such as Downs Syndrome increase to absolutely *terrifying* levels once you go past 35. And then there is the simple fact that having her has been one of the most amazing experiences of my life, to the point where I actually resent all of that 'ooh, no, you can't have a family now... you've got so much to live for!' nonsense. So much to live for? So much to regret, more like...
Ely - who would like to point out that this is how she feels, and doesn't expect anyone to agree with her at all, because every time she has expressed even a tiny amount of this in the past to people (apart from other mothers, which is interesting...), she always and without fail is accused to being some kind of hideous gender traitor and betrayer of the so-called 'sisterhood'. So she will re-iterate this again: if you don't have kids and don't want kids, then that's fine. That's your choice. But this is *my* choice, and it doesn't make me any less of a woman because I want to be a mother rather than Company of the Board.
^^D
Chill out Ron, i'm not a man hater *laughing*
My grandfather gave up a place at the University of Arts in London to marry and care for my Nan and her child from a previous marriage. He was just 17yrs old from a poor mining family, and had been given an honorary scholarship. He ended up down the pits to earn for his new wife and her sick child (Cystic Fibrosis). Now that is an amazing man and someone to look up to. Men are great, ahem. Where would we be without them, mmmmmmmmm.
Spermbanks etc etc mmmmmm. (hahaha)
& Keeks, you're my favourite Aunty Kirie ;)
The result? Most women can no longer get to 'choose' whether to work or not because two incomes are necessary to run most households.
I agree with ME. The cost of living must be lowered somehow. We're working ourselves to death!
As to marriage, I think it offers a certain stability, but the vows should definitely be reviewed very carefully by everyone intending to say them.
I had a lovely day out today, the sun shone and I was feeling pretty good.
Came back to find GP had started this thread now and with 40 bloody comments covering womens liberation, push up bras and the quality of brickies I for one am struggling to keep up...let alone get on with my edit. Bastards!!!
1 - I think cod piece rather than jock strap - to those new to this blog, please be reassured, this is not a dinner order.
2 - The liberation of women has freed them to hit their brick-layers in the head with mallets and their husbands with spatulas - but probably only metaphorically.
3 - What's the opposite to a push up bra? It's just that the years, the beer/pies/choccy and the regrettable lack of exercise have combined to an extent that...
I must be truly honest and say, I wrote this blog to show that in fact I am not a man-eater, that we all have choices to make that should be respected regardless by us all, that these choices should not be made willy nilly, but should be decided through careful consideration, not just accepted from examples surrounding us, be they appropriate or inappropriate.
Don’t just say ‘I do’ to any vow just because it’s in the ceremony, consider it first.
Mark - you're great! I am also desperately trying to edit and this is extremely side tracking, sorry!
I can't take responsibility for the topics that this has raised - I think my blogs are purely a catalyst to explore what I thought was a done topic. Obviously it isn't. So, please no GP bashing I beg of you.
if we could work within the confines of what we are better at maybe things might be better.
I am 17 stone and can carry two bags of cement to where I am working, why should I expect my 9.5 stone OH to even be able to help me if I am shovelling or cutting or smashing things, but if we do work she will paint, or something more suited to her size and strength. There is no competition just and understanding I am twice her size.
I can iron but do not, I do not wash the clothes either. But I cook as she hates cooking. I work she does not, she is not kept that is the way it is.
When we first moved into this conservative area, we attended a dinner party, where, after the instant segregation of men and women (men outside at the fire discussing real issues and women in the kitchen discussing their nails and a new recipe), I was asked, 'So, your husband farm's, so what do you do?' with the implication that I sit at home a knit. The thought that maybe I was the farmer and maybe he a carpenter, salesman or baker never even occurred to them. I am the boss of my world. I am not flaunting or conceited about this, rather it is the reality of our (Me and my husband) world. We are equally important, but I tend to make the final decisions, I pay the bills and the salaries, I sort out bank agreements and contracts, and he has left me to it. This has never been a point of contention, it just is what it is. This type of understanding is gibberish here, men are the bread winners and women bake cakes and that is it.
The idea to conform, should only because that is your strength, you bake a mean Chocolate Mousse Cake (sorry Recovering Chocie holic!) and not because it is the expectation.
Of course there can be a downside. Sometimes the need for equality in the work place can place unrealistic demands on employees, especially when brute strength is required. My long-term partner had an uncle who suffered from epileptic fits. If the fit was particularly bad, an ambulance was sent out and he was held down and sedated. One day the two drivers were both woman, neither of whom were able to hold him down or administer the shot - he was a very large, very strong man.
Well, he died. It transpired later on that the ambulance company had been under pressure to sort out its gender imbalance and had done so. This was the sad, sorry result.
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