Those pesky rules

Published by: Debi on 16th Feb 2011 | View all blogs by Debi
Many of you will know that one of the things I will be up to at the festival in York is running a Breaking the Rules workshop.  I know this is something a lot of people agonise over.  When is a rule not a rule, should there be such a thing as a rule at all, what are the consequences of breaking them, how come so many published books seem to get away with ignoring them completely ... etc etc.

Anyway, I've just started prepping for the workshop and wondered what people would find most useful.  POV switches is the obvious one.  Then there's sticking to a linear chronological structure, not mixing tenses or 1st/3rd person ...

I'd be really interested to hear from people here, whether you'll be at York or not.  Which 'rule' would you most like to break?

Last year, we were able to post our course notes on the site after the Festival.  If that happens again, even if you can't be there in person,  you should hopefully be able to see the final list of them there pesky rules, together with my suggestions re how to break them.

Thanks!

Comments

44 Comments

  • Barb
    by Barb 1 year ago
    The use of prologues seems to come up on here a lot - maybe looking at the situations when it would be viable to use one?
  • CJ
    by CJ 1 year ago
    I find that it's not so much 'which rules to break', but more 'not having people jump down your throat if you dare to try something that bends / breaks these rules'. I've read plenty of engaging pieces that I personally thought worked really well (not perfect, but I could appreciate what people were trying to achieve), but people were more interested in going on and on about 'the rules' than actually weighing up the merit of the piece itself - and I find that irritating - especially when the writer tired to defend themselves, specifically saying they were trying to break those rules for a change, and the critics just hit back with 'you can't take criticism', rather than seeing the merit in what they were tying to do - because whilst I am aware that those critics may very well have been 'right', surely writing is going to stifle and wither if we don't have people willing to at least try to challenge / break these so called rules? And if you do decide to try to bend or break them, how do you 'defend' yourself for having the audacity to try?
  • CJ
    by CJ 1 year ago
    Just to add: Prologues for some, but it's dreams for me. I like writing dreams (I like writing bits where protagonists aren't sure if what they are experiencing is real or not, so lucid dreaming, being contacted via dreams, thinking something is a dream when it isn't etc are all things I like to play around with), but keep reading that dreams are a big no no and I shouldn't touch them with a barge pole, they are so frowned upon.
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Ooh, prologues, yes. Good one.

    Mistress Elysia - I understand your frustration. The thing is there's such a thing as internalising these rules (guidelines is probably a better word) to the extent that they can stifle your creativity. And of course this is a Bad Thing. That's the reason I came up with the idea for this particular workshop. It's vital to understand them though and to know what the consequences of breaking them are. The bottom line is that you have to have a good reason for doing it. Without seeing the specific axamples you mention, I can't know if those writers pulled it off or not.
  • CJ
    by CJ 1 year ago
    One was a Nebula Prize winner - the writer had dared use two adverbs in her first sentence, and that was all anyone could talk about (where I was posting, any way). I could see how the piece might not appeal to everyone (the thread was entitled 'Porn wins the Nebula?' after all!), but I completely appreciated what the writer was trying to achieve. But, due to her potential over-use of adverbs (yes, there were a lot, but I didn't think they intruded that much, and obviously neither did the Nebula award givers!), a lot of people just gave the piece grief, going on and on and on about bloody adverbs. It was like the 'Adverbs are BAD!' blinkers were put on and that's all they could see. That or they were dead jealous... ^^p
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Hmmm - I'll add overuse of adverbs and adjectives to the list. Thanks!
  • Tony
    by Tony 1 year ago
    It's like teaching a child never to cross the road except at a Pelican Crossing - it's easiest and safest that way. But there's no rule that says we must never cross elsewhere (not in the UK). However, having learnt the safety rule as children we know to take extra care when crossing without the aid the Pelican lights to stop the traffic. So with writing, if we're aquainted with the rules and the reasons for them, we'll know to take extra care when the need arises to break them.
  • Gerilyn
    by Gerilyn 1 year ago
    When you talk about switching POV's- I assume you mean when writing in the 3rd person. I'm wring a story told in the 1st person... so can only include scenes whitnessed by the narrator of the story. However- the middle 2 chapters are told by the narrator's boyfriend and her sister- one chapter each- during an event which leaves the narrator unconsious. I know Marian keyes did something similar when she wrote 'This Charming Man' but that was told by 4 woman and each chapter alternated between the 4. I'm pondering whether to take these 2 chapters out. Anyway that would be a rule I'd like to bend.
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Tony - perfect image. You must be a writer ...

    Gerilyn - yes, POV switches are not an issue if you're writing in the first person because everything is seen through one pair of eyes. Without reading your MS, I can't know if what you're sugggesting works or not in the context of the whole book. Are those 2 chapters also written in the first person but in the vloice of a different character?
  • Tony
    by Tony 1 year ago
    @ Debi: Who me?

    I've just read a Michael Crichton 1st person fantasy novel, "Prey". He had a period of unconsciousness and he preceeded telling us what happened during that time by syaing that he was later able to view it all on the CCTV recordings. Fine. Except that when he revived, he only just managed to escape the complex before it all blew up! Plot hole, or what?
  • Gerilyn
    by Gerilyn 1 year ago
    Hi Debi, yes they are first person too- so each chapter has a different voice to the rest of the book. They basically involve searching for the protagonist- the reader doesn't know if she's dead or alive and both chapters are like a race against time.. they amount to 10k words which I thought would go as a middle section to the story- breaking the entire MS into 3 parts: part 1 ends in protagonist's 'death' part 2 is searching for her/body part3- protagonist survives.. big fights ensue etc
    Without them- the narrator falls unconsious then wakes up a week later in hospital. All the drama that unfolded during that week is then only hinted at. The book then continues as it began- narrated by principal protagonist.
  • Gerilyn
    by Gerilyn 1 year ago
    Yes- Tony that does seem like a huge plot hole- my dilema is is that one of the most interesting chapters imo is told by protagonist's boyfriend as he desperately tries to find her before she's killed.
  • Stephy
    by Stephy 1 year ago
    Hi Debi. What a fab idea for a workshop :-) For me it's flashbacks - when to use, when not to use, and how to seamlessly integrate them into the narrative without jerking the reader from the story.
    ps. as huge LOST fan - can flashback, flash-forwards and flash-sideways work in fiction like they can on screen?
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Tony - it's so frustrating to think that an author with his degree of success can get away with that just because he is who he is! I'm afraid that no unpublished author would have a chance of nailing a deal with a gaping hole like that.
    BTW - I stole your image and used it on my blog. Forgive me? Please?

    Gerilyn - it sounds great! From what you've said, that structure sounds like the best way of wringing the last drop of suspense from the situation you've placed your main protagonist in. Obviously, I can't be sure if it works, but it looks like your instincts about what works best for the story you're telling might well be spot on.
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Stephy - the brief answer is that it can but there's always a risk involved in pulling the reader out of seeing things as they unfold in this way. The crucial thing is clarity ie that you have to ensure the reader knows exactly where they are in the timeline and how what they're reading fits in with what they have already read.
  • EzBloke
    by EzBloke 1 year ago
    What about the use of cliché's?
    I've just downloaded the no-no list off the internet and ran a script to highlight them for deletion from my manuscript.
    I've managed to cut my novel down from 96 thousand to just 12... words.

    But the one I'd like to really get to grips with is starting a sentence with the word "but" (or "and")

    Also, and here's one that I think will be almost impossible to explain, how do I break the rule that says my chosen genre, science fiction, isn't well considered in literary terms?
  • Tony
    by Tony 1 year ago
    Steal away, Debbi. And put it rather more succinctly, I see ;-)

    (That second sentence structure was in honour of EzBloke.)
  • Caducean Whisks
    by Caducean Whisks 1 year ago
    Ez, Doris Lessing wrote a series of SF books - 'Canopus in Argos'. I read all of them as they came out, and found them very thought-provoking - I still remember them now, yet it was early 80s if memory serves. So it can be done. Also, Margaret Atwood's 'Oryx and Crake' is set in a dystopian future, and is one of my all-time top ten books. You're in good company.
  • CJ
    by CJ 1 year ago
    "Also, and here's one that I think will be almost impossible to explain, how do I break the rule that says my chosen genre, science fiction, isn't well considered in literary terms?" I know exactly what you mean, Ez - in what other genre other than sci fi and fantasy do you get a whole sector of the industry (agents and publishers) with an active 'I don't care how well written it is, I'm not touching it' policy? I know all agents have their preferences, but SFF really gets a bum deal with it comes to people looking down their noses at it. As a work colleague of mine once said: 'it's because it's all written for, well, social misfits and children, isn't it? No self respecting person who appreciates literature would ever lower themselves to reading it'. (She then asked me what my novel was. When I said 'fantasy, aimed at the teenage / young adult market', she went a bit red and scuttled off...)
  • EzBloke
    by EzBloke 1 year ago
    Hey! Who's calling me a child...?!
  • CJ
    by CJ 1 year ago
    I decided to take 'social misfit' as a compliment. Better than being one of the sheeple! Baaaaaaa!
  • Barry Walsh
    by Barry Walsh 1 year ago
    Re 'rules'. My father used to say that a 'No Entry' sign doesn't mean you can't drive down a street, but that someone doesn't want you to. He added that, while it was important to be clear about the difference, obeying the sign was likely to be the best option most of the time.
  • Tony
    by Tony 1 year ago
    Ha ha, PK. It's like when you receive a large envelops with, printed in red, "PHOTOHRAPHS Do Not Bend" and the postman has foled it to get it through your letter box, just to prove it wrong.
  • RichardB
    by RichardB 1 year ago
    Two things, one brief, one less so.

    The brief one: starting sentences with 'but' and 'and'. I have a how-to-be-a-writer book my daughter gave me that contains a heartening list of rules-that-aren't-rules-so-you-can-break-them, and this is one of them. I was glad to see it, because I do it all the time. Not just for the sake of it, but because sometimes that really is the best and most vivid way of saying it.

    Now, SF&F. The best illustration I know of the snotty attitude some people take to this was the back blurb of a straight novel written many years ago by one Frank Herbert, which concluded the brief author's bio with 'This is his first novel.' To remind you, this was the man who'd written 'Dune,' one of the most famous SF novels of all time and winner of both Hugo and Nebula Awards, not to mention several sequels. OK, so 'Dune' sucks as literature, with wooden characters and not terribly brilliant writing, but 'first novel'? WHAT?

    And (told you I did this!) I challenge anybody to read Ursula Leguin with an unbiased mind and tell me she isn't a good, nay, great writer. She addresses serious issues, she's insightful and perceptive, and her prose sometimes verges on poetry without ever becoming pretentious. She has been known to move me to the point of tears, and she is the only writer who has ever, in my adult life, actually made my flesh creep. does she deserve to be written off just because she happens to write SF?
  • Caducean Whisks
    by Caducean Whisks 1 year ago
    How about lumps of backstory? And minor characters who get too big for their boots?
  • Normal Normington
    by Normal Normington 1 year ago
    Sod the rules and write away, if its good it will be published, if its rubbish it wont, if its good it might not be published and if its rubbish it might be published.
    If we stuck to the rules there would be no: Punk, Waltzes, cheese, big floppy hats, the name Leonard, clams that can sing, cars, electric thingy's, the ability to teleport, my mums pie, giant flesh eating cockroaches. (the cockroaches are giant not eating giant flesh)

    Some of these aren't true...sod the rules, made by killjoys.
  • Tors
    by Tors 1 year ago
    I agree whisks backstory without info dumping especially for a sci-fi writer. I needed to explain why the spaceship left earth and why several generations later they're still floating around.
  • CJ
    by CJ 1 year ago
    Ursula LeGuin is a beautiful writer, as is Robin Hobb and Neil Gaiman - not just good stories, but wonderful prose, too. I'll also echo Whisks backstory thing - in SFF, setting down some rules and explaining why basic things are the way they are is essential, otherwise how on earth are your readers meant to access your world and know what the hell is going on? I've even gone to the length of cutting out whole swathes of subplot just to avoid backstory, and whilst some people may argue this is a Good Thing because it streamlines the plot, there is going to come a time when someone says 'but if A is that, then how come B still keeps happening?' and I run the risk of looking like an idiot, all because of this arbitrary rule...
  • Athelstone
    by Athelstone 1 year ago
    She casually drops one of the most scorching opening lines ever written, and then proceeds to tell, head-hop, sprinkle the adverbs, and generally deliver a compelling story about almost nothing of importance. Bloody Jane Austen.
  • Wrathnar the Unreasonable
    Looking through the W&A yearbook for agents and publishers, I found plenty who handle SF and fantasy, but none at all who handle horror. None! And yet, Stephen King must be one of (if not THE) biggest selling authors of all time. Me no understand.
  • John Taylor
    by John Taylor 1 year ago
    Debi, the most no-no comments I've had about my ms are about a naive protagonist (like she wouldn't be with a learning disability) and about changes of tense between the two narrators.
    My narrators take longish turns (half or whole chapters, mainly), both first person, and one speaks in the present tense, almost 'stream of consciousness' but actually more organized, and the other past tense, because her whole persona is more distanced.
    Like Mistress E, I'm fond of dreams, and just to be awkward, I put doodles at each change of narrator. Oh, and I include a few spoken stories told by characters. And my disabled characters aren't grim, desperate, or autistic, or have Down syndrome, and they aren't children.
    Er... and I love walking on the grass when it says you can't.
    Looking forward to York!
  • MarkR
    by MarkR 1 year ago
    Show don't tell.
    My natural inclination is to tell. I'm trying to break the habit and mix it up, but I've got a complex about it now.

    Oh and short, snappy, 3 word titles!!

    I'm interested in lots of the other suggestions made by others too.
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    There's some great stuff here. Thanks, all. Of course 'show, don't tell' needs to be on the list. Not starting sentences with And ... or But ... really isn't even a guideline. If it's right for the voice and the rhythm of the prose, then it's right. End of ...

    I already had info dumps on the list and back story comes under the heading of: 'Thou shalt stick with a linear chronological narrative'.

    This could turn out to be tricky to fit into an hour! Though some things (eg minor characters getting too big for their boots) can simply be summarised under the banner of 'everything has to have a purpose within the narrative and a function in moving it forwards'.

    I wish I could solve the problem about genre but alas, that one's beyond me.
  • Amarantha
    by Amarantha 1 year ago
    Oh, I use flashbacks when my heroine is unconscious (she gets into plenty of scrapes!) I switch to italics for these.

    I haven't had a professional critique since I started doing this, but I thought it the best way after the closest I got to publishing was an Editor's letter telling me they loved the story but thought it too linear. I needed to go in on a high-point; my set pieces were exciting and well written, so edit and do resubmit.

    Due to a long interruption I'm still editing! Should I ever finish and resubmit, will I be told to stop breaking the rules and resubmit? Probably.
  • Tony
    by Tony 1 year ago
    It's going to be a cracker of a seminar. I'm not there this year, but I'll certainly look out for the notes. Hope you're able to post them, Debbi.

    Oh, here's one: What about starting sentences with 'ing' words? Being a stickler for the rules, he would never start a sentence with a participle.
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Amarantha - I confess to being a little shocked at that feedback. Too linear??? The positive stuff is great - they don't bother giving that sort of feedback unless you're getting something very right - and starting on a high point makes sense, but I've never heard of an MS being criticised as being too linear. I'd be very careful about redrafting on the basis of a single opinion.

    Tony - you're not coming? I'm bereft ... If I can't post the notes afterwards (though I'm pretty sure I will be able to) you've earned yourself an email attachment.
  • Captain Morgan
    by Captain Morgan 1 year ago
    Looks set to be an electrifying workshop :) My two cents:


    Rampant/flagrant exclamation marks, particularly in chapter 1: inexcusable laughing at your own jokes – as F. Scott Fitzgerald suggested – or a potentially dynamic opening (Fear and Loathing, anyone)?


    An X-rated chapter 1 – how to make it sail into an agent’s request-a-full stack instead of the shredder?


    Captain Morgan
  • Amarantha
    by Amarantha 1 year ago
    Debi, would you believe that at that time I didn't even know what 'linear' meant! I decided I needed to know what the heck she was talking about before going any further, so embarked on a correspondence course. Learned what 'linear' meant and also that I had received a very encouraging rejection. Downside was ... it made me hyper self-critical; never again would I bash away blithely, editing only for typos as I went along!

    I believe that rigid adherence to rules can destroy the freshness of the creative spark; cramping an author's style; slowing the process. I don't want to write Literature; I want to be different.
  • Gerilyn
    by Gerilyn 1 year ago
    ''I believe that rigid adherence to rules can destroy the freshness of the creative spark; cramping an author's style; slowing the process. I don't want to write Literature; I want to be different.'' Amaranth- can I steal this and stick it on my desk?
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    OK - let's nail this. Writing is a creative activity and as such uses the right side of the brain. When you're writing a first draft, you have to unleash this side and let it go wherever it takes you, without constantly stopping to work out if you're breaking perceived rules or not. Once you finish the first draft, that's when you need to engage the left side of the brain to deconstruct and analyse what you've written with a critical eye. That's the point when you spot that you've done things like POV shifts and if so, if they can be justified.

    They're thought of as rules for a reason. The best writing might break them, but not necessarily. In fact, quite often the most powerful writing is the simplest. When an author breaks the rules in a way that's truly successful, you probably won't even notice they've done it because you will be so engrossed in the story they are telling. That's what we all need to aim for.
  • MinxieAD
    by MinxieAD 1 year ago
    I was going to write a blog about this after reading something a guy called Art Arthur said. "Don't get it right, get it written". It was more to do with coping with writers' block.
  • Debi
    by Debi 1 year ago
    Well yes. The one unbreakable rule is that to be a writer, you have to write.
  • John Taylor
    by John Taylor 1 year ago
    Damn it, Debi! I knew I was doing something wrong...
  • Ancient Woodland
    by Ancient Woodland 1 year ago
    I have to agree with Mistress Elysia and EZBloke (well, there's a first time for everything, mate), SF&F really get a bum deal out there and I just cannot understand why. If you look at the top 30 highest grossing movies of all time, you'll find that 23 of them are SF or Fantasy and yet people look down their nose at you when they see you reading it. So, it's OK to go to the cinema to see this stuff but reading it is a no-no?

    It is extremely difficult to get an agent for SF&F, never mind get it published and I can't see why - SF&F is evocative, it's in your face, it's bigger and weirder and has more visual impact than anything contemporary. With modern CGI, SF&F is simply stunning. So why the under representation? 3-1 the next movie into the top 30 will be SF or F and the agent gets a piece of that don't they?

    As for rule breakers - if we adhere to all the rules, there will be no more ground breaking works. I think of them more as guides, paths pre-cut through the publishing jungle. Following them gives you the easiest and safest ways to get where you want to go but any route is viable, although you may have to cut your own path.
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